Maybe the Tea Party IS Different From OWS....hmmm...
48 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Deluded is what you are. You didn't get one thing right about the tea party (yes, I know you stole it). And yes, there are documented cases showing your 'Grassroots' movement is not grassroots, and is racist, and everything you claim it isn't.
Your ignorance is astounding. Astounding, even though we have all seen it on display before. Seriously, do you not read anything other than Daily KOS?!
And I just love that non black-and-white approach, so full of nuance and shades of gray. What I really can't grasp is how you can say that of yourself and not bust out laughing.
Looks like at least one illegallyrifle-toting felon has been arrested at Seattle OWS. Unlike the completely legal exercise of 2nd Amendment rights at a few TEA Parties. And remember when NBC tried to also make it a racial incident by cropping the video to hide the fact that the rifle-carrying man was in fact black?
Or the joker-painted idiot who pulled a bowie knife at the Austin OWS, and got his ass arrested.
Do you want more, Mark, or will you just retire to your bedroom, thumb in mouth, ready to resume f***ing that poor chicken, so that you can emerge fresh in the morning spouting The Truth as Talking Point Memo, Daily Kos, Democratic Underground, and Media Matters spoon feeds it to you?
It's amusing to watch you guys become unhinged as this movement eclipses The Tea Party. The flurry of recent overly antagonistic posts betrays your insecurity. Keep 'Em comin' boys!
Mark, if your opinions are so sound, why must you constantly distort and misrepresent the positions of those who hold different opinions? Why are you unable (or at least unwilling) to be honest in your descriptions?
This is what I find most frustrating about these sorts of conversations. All I'm doing is repeating back what the people you support say. Apparently, you don't like that so you say that I am distorting things. There are seven things on this list about the Tea Party. Let's look at them again.
1. True. Fox News does cover Tea Party events extensively and advertises them.
2. Commonplace at Tea Party rallies. I've shown you a video that is illustrative of this. And your solution for the poor and sick is...what exactly? It's all their fault that they are sick and poor?
3. You are definitely anti union. Anti-poor, as I have stated above. Racist...yes, there are many racists on the right. Of course, you have your usual dance about this but it's classic denial. Bigoted and xenophobic-oh yeah. This is more prevalent than racism. It's rampant otherism. If people don't think like you, they are Marxists and enemies of the state.
4. The Tea Party is funded by the Koch Brothers.
5. People have gone to rallies with assault rifles and spat at members of Congress. And it is most definitely how fascism starts.
Don't agree? Fine. Show me the facts. Meanwhile, I have this...
...and all Larry and I are doing with these links are showing you what the people you support are doing at these little sit ins. How about getting an 11 year old drunk!
All I'm doing is repeating back what the people you support say.
No M you don't. I understand that you may repeat what you think you hear - but that isn't the same as what people actually said to you. Your filters predistort so that it fits your fixed patterns. You really are incapable of getting past that - just as you will with this.
Racist epithets from Tea Party? Oh yeah, another lie by the left.
Tea Party AstroTurfed? Ha, again your a dumbass cause you listen to the dumbasses on the left. Tea Party starting point.
Yep, the very definition of a grassroots movement that picked up steam rapidly. And this movement targeted both the left and right and picked the correct cause of most of our problems today - government politicians.
Mock the sick and the poor? No again. Geez, you suck at this.
Last, you're being childishly dishonest. Anyone with a brain knows that there are all sorts of outliers at events like this. These incidents are not indicative of the movement as a whole and are, more or less, exaggerated propaganda. With the Tea Party stuff, however, this is their platform. I'm certain that you will shrug and think this is all just my bias but if Dennis Kucinich and Buck Johnson were running the Democratic Party, I'd say that they are nuts as well.
6Kings, believe whatever you want. "Proven" by a right wing blog means nothing here or in reality for that matter. What else do you have? Let's see....the left is really the ones that are racist (a classic)...Michele Malkin (check for bias on your sources?)-this must be where I'm supposed to get mad and yell about her, right? Sorry, no more feeding the beast...and a series of Stosselesque pieces that show how kind and generous the Tea party really is...how quaint:)
About time for someone to start yelling about how Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme...
Well M, you can spin your genetic fallacy argument all you want but when it comes down to it, is the argument true or not? You asked for facts and they were presented and show that everything you believe about the Tea Party to be false or at the very least distorted. Try absorbing and learning for once.
Here's another way to look at what I am saying, last. Yesterday, an Iraq war vet was injured by police in the Occupy Oakland rallies. Now, by your logic, I should be yelling about police brutality, how cops are assholes and the vet was completely innocent. This was likely not the case just like "what the people you support are doing at these little sit ins." (raping, doing drugs etc).
juris, "nah" and then you go ahead an do it anyway? Tsk tsk..
uses yet another logical fallacy: the Genetic fallacy
Well M, you can spin your genetic fallacy argument
There's a big difference between checking a source for bias and a genetic fallacy. The problem here is that you guys do it all the time with Michael Moore ("He's a proven liar so everything he says is wrong!") and Bill Maher so you naturally think that I do it when I question the bias of a source (another fine example of #3-Projection/Flipping).
Every source (including this site) should be checked for bias. This is why I'm pretty meticulous about not using Daily Kos, TPM or HuffPo a lot on this site. But it's OK for you guys to quote Brietbart? Very hypocritical and childish-not surprising. I'll make you guys a deal, though. I'll accept everything as truth in the above links if, in return, you guys accept seven links from Micheal Moore, Daily Kos, and TPM as truth. Better yet, I'll spend time researching Michele Malkin, for example, and fact checking her claims if you do the same for Micheal Moore. Remember, no genetic fallacy, just a fact check on statements with information from unbiased sources. Deal?
That all being said, I don't doubt that the Tea Party gives to charity but that's not the whole story which is why I use the term "Stosselesque." Stossel leaves out large swaths of truth when he spins his yarns. While the Tea Party gives to these charities, they are simultaneously arguing against Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Planned Parenthood, and a whole host of government programs that help millions of people every day. Why? Because of their theology about government which, in turn, is anti-poor.
The larger issue here is that you guys are alienating a very substantial portion of the population (the 9.1 percent unemployed) and saying that it's all their fault. You are painting them as hippies/communists etc and I think that is very foolish. Why? Because they are all going to vote next year.
No, that's your logic. The chart you posted says "people show up with assault rifles". I'm aware of one incident but I'd think you would have a few more examples of that behavior you speak of like we do of the behavior we are talking about so your readers can decide for themselves exactly how common the activity actually is. If you can come up with a couple dozen examples, I'll remind you that "Anyone with a brain knows that there are all sorts of outliers at events like this."
Sure the name of the site is redstate but the links he linked to include Businessweek, local news webpages, Bloomberg, Politico, USAtoday, and the AP.
Social security, medicare, medicaid and planned parenthood are not my definition of charity. Do you consider those programs examples of charity? Is paying taxes Charity to you?
Speaking for myself, I'm not arguing against SS, medicare, or PP...I think those programs can be structured differently to make them more sustainable, which is what I consider success, not just having a popular program that helps people.
I've also never said job losses fall exclusively on the individual so I'm not sure who you are talking to here...probably your misrepresentation of our positions again.
Oh, I can read, juris. Saying it's a shell game is just as much of a lie as saying that it's Ponzi scheme. There's nothing hidden about how Social Security works. The article has the same intent: link Social Security to criminal activity. It's not criminal in any way and most people support it. You're just going to have to lump it.
About 300 people attended an anti-Obama rally in Alamogordo Saturday, and many of the protesters showed up at the rally armed with holstered hand-guns and loaded assault rifles.
Tea party supporters toting guns gathered on the steps of the Montana Capitol on Friday
By "dozen" do you mean people or gatherings? I have plenty more if you'd like me to go on. What I find to be most frustrating, last, is that you doubt me and it's solely because of your bias. You really need to come to grips with the simple fact that folks on your side -MANY folks on your side-are just as I continually describe.
probably your misrepresentation of our positions again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aljWhgjAhk8
That's a GOP candidate with the audience cheering. Again, very frustrated that you are unwilling to accept the asshattery of conservatives.
Thanks for the examples. I wasn't aware of those. By dozens, I meant gatherings. We all know that Anyone with a brain knows that there are all sorts of outliers at events like this.
So there.
I guess if you think that bringing a gun to a rally where no laws were broken and no property was damaged is equal to accusations of rape, sexual assault, drug dealing, giving alcohol to underage kids, stealing, clashes with police, advocating killing the wealthy, spray painting property, etc, then we just have different definitions of asshattery.
I can't get on youtube at work so I can't view that video. Does my acceptance of something mean anything to anyone?
Both of those stories seem to illustrate that is was far more than just a couple of people.
Regarding your comparison, one other thing to consider is that we're talking about Oakland here for your list of horrendous criminal activity, correct? I think there is a big difference between Oakland and NYC-the epicenter of the movement. What sorts of crimes have occurred at Zuccotti Park? I honestly don't know that's why I'm asking.
Of course, the sorts of things that are happening in Oakland are exactly what I warned you guys about when I spoke of the president and the Democrats attempting to prevent a socialist revolution. None of us want that. Keep burying your heads in the sand about inequality and stoking those paranoid fantasies about the president, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, and Nancy Pelosi. Nothing like biting the hand that is feeding (and protecting) you....sheesh.
On this blog, you mentioned that a fox news employee was filmed rallying folks at a tea party rally. Here's an NPR employee who was fired for her involvement in the Occupy protest. Don't worry - I'm sure you and blk have no doubt whatsoever that NPR calls is straight down the middle.
My head isn't buried regarding inequality. I'm well aware that it exists. It has always existed and will always exist. I know you're going to respond that the level it is up to now is unacceptable to you. It's not unacceptable to me - it's a fact of life. I'm not concerned with tearing someone else down to make things level - I have more relevant things to occupy my time and attention - things that are within my sphere of influence - like my family. That does not mean I'm ok with criminal behavior btw. It's funny to see people be against crony capitalism while voting for their version of the cronies.
You will never get rid of or change the level of inequality to any great extent. Hence, your fight will continue to infinity and you will always have the term Inequality to pin on the wall.
Since you're so insistent on dismissing anything you consider "biased", given who you most often quote here one must presume you consider Paul Krugman and Bill Maher to be shining examples of credible, unbiased sources, right?
As well as the site where you got the graphic this is the comment thread for, of course.
Wow, this OWS movement is really making you guys shit yourselves hence the childish scramble to "prove" that they are all a bunch of criminals. I guess it's now going to be propaganda piece after propaganda piece which show how awful they all really are. What a giant sack of childish dishonesty and complete fail at critical thinking. When you are ready for the latter, here you go.
Time to go find some stories on these folks. I bet they are all rapers of children. Honestly, both of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves but blaming the victim is classic right wing horse shit.
You will never get rid of or change the level of inequality to any great extent.
That's the most preposterous thing you have ever written on here. It's also patently wrong if you look at the history of this country. I guess I was hoping for some sort of qualitative analysis from you about degrees of inequality but I guess that's not going to happen. I put up a link to an IMF report about how more inequality hampers a state's ability to compete. Did you read it? If so, discuss the facts they present. It's filled with data. If not, do so.
Inequality is always going to be around in free trade and free market cultures. The degree of inequality is what I am talking about here. I've said this many times but I guess you didn't pay attention (there must have been someone who lost their home due to Wall Street casino BS that needed to be accused of being a pedophile) but I have no problem with their being unfairness in our society. That's the nature of capitalism. What I have a problem with is that when it becomes so bad there is stagnation and a lag behind other countries. We can ill afford to have that happen considering what a more robust China could bring to a new power balance.
Sooner or later, you are going to have to set aside your reluctance to admit that I'm right about something and accept what is happening.
Huh, I'm definitely not seeing the adultness of the dipshit table "proving" how awful the Tea Partiers are and how wonderful the OWSers are. I can't imagine how you can honestly think that that promotes any kind of discussion.
Why don't you just call us all fascist suckers of corporate cock again, and then wonder how anyone could possibly get offended? Asshole.
It's not a scramble - it's quite easy to do. I don't think they are all criminals. I just think there are better ways for them to address their problems instead of banging on a drum all day in a park.
If the content of the news stories we have posted here are just propaganda then post the link that refutes them. Our links are no different than the links you referenced about the tea party, but only your links are examples of critical thinking. Got it.
I'm not blaming any grand problems on them. My links were put up to disprove your notion that the protesters are some actual representation of a majority of this nation. They aren't. When the protests end, nothing will have changed, but you'll still have your intentions to fall back on.
I don't have time to do much quantitative analysis on inequality. It's month end at work and we are very busy, plus I have lots of family stuff going on this weekend. Inequality exists and it always will. It's a fact of life I am quite comfortable with and since I know that there is a difference between being educated and being wise, I know that my position in life is not going to improve by yelling at bankers from a park.
I don't think you are right here. I don't think this is a mainstream movement. I don't think that conservatives need to be careful when talking about the protesters. I think that the worst things you have found at tea party rallies don't even compare to the examples we have posted here.
Thanks for bringing up China again. The Left (you, blk, Friedman, etc) does love to press its nose against the window of the world and talk about how things are better “over there" and right now, the prettiest flower is China (so they think). In the late 80's, everyone thought Japan was going to seize economic center stage in the world. Those writings seem pretty stupid now don't they? Like every other country, China has problems...many of which aren’t reflected in its GDP growth rates and since it lacks democracy, a free press, and the rule of law, we can’t know what all of the problems are until they explode (and neither can the Chinese). Saying China is doing the best misses a pretty big point. Economic competitiveness statistics are a con. It assumes that when other countries prosper, America loses. Doesn't work like that. If the average Chinese worker were as rich as the average Ukranian worker, it would be an economic windfall for the United States. Conversely, if China’s economy imploded tomorrow, we would gain competitively.
I was going over my Roth IRA info today and I remembered when you posted a link on here (April 3, 2011) where you said that a mutual fund expense ratio of .50 was an example of rich people fucking people over. My expense ratio is .26, way lower than .50. Was that a propaganda piece or an example of critical thinking?
not seeing the adultness of the dipshit table "proving" how awful the Tea Partiers are and how wonderful the OWSers are.
Look, Larry, in any movement like this, there is going to be incidents of violence. That's simply how it works. I have no doubt that there will be more violence especially in cities like Oakland.
But they aren't indicative of the OWS movement as a whole. Yet, the Tea Party proudly carries guns to meetings and tells the unemployed that it's their fault. They rally against Social Security, calling a program that helps the elderly stay out of poverty, a crime. They cheer Paul Ryan essentially destroying Medicare. In short, they have done all the things on the list in this graphic. Trying to hide and pretend that they aren't this way is shirking responsibility. You can play whatever games you want but the Tea Party has become a niche organization whose influence is clearly waning. It's largely because their solutions are preposterous.
you decline to answer my questions
Not sure if you are new here but I don't respond to anonymous posters anymore. Pick a name and I will.
I just think there are better ways for them to address their problems instead of banging on a drum all day in a park.
Seriously, when did you become 90? This is such a caricature. See the link I put up and read their stories. I hope you change your mind.
post the link that refutes them.
See my comment above to Larry. You're not being completely honest about the information nor are you taking into account the bias of the sources. When the OWS formally calls for public fornication and urination (as the Tea Party has called for destroying successful social programs that help people), then you'll have a valid argument. There's no equating the two right now.
I know that my position in life is not going to improve by yelling at bankers from a park.
So, I guess all those people that engaged in the civil rights movement wasted their time as well. Last, the Wall Street Journal is reporting that more millionaires want to be taxed at higher rates now and want inequality to be less than it is. I'd say they are starting to have an effect.
. I think that the worst things you have found at tea party rallies don't even compare to the examples we have posted here.
The worst thing about the Tea Party movement is their entire platform. It's a fucking disaster that has no place in our world today and would do great harm to our country in the global marketplace.
I brought up China because we don't want them achieving any sort of hegemenonic power in the world. You think our government is totalitarian? If we don't address our issues of social cohesion and inequality, there is no doubt that China's influence in the world, which is going to be substantial anyway, will undercut free market progress. You really need to read that IMF report.
Regarding your Roth IRA, are you saying your annual fee is .26 and it is locked in? The other thing to consider is that this was a study in 2006. Things may have changed since that time. If this is true, though, it doesn't somehow magically prove that you have just as many advantages as the uber wealthy in this country. There are obviously other factors.
M: Look, Larry, in any movement like this, there is going to be incidents of violence. That's simply how it works. I have no doubt that there will be more violence especially in cities like Oakland. Mark, please show us similar acts of violence at TEA Party rallies (that weren't instigated by SEIU goons).
M: But they aren't indicative of the OWS movement as a whole. Yet, the Tea Party proudly carries guns to meetings and tells the unemployed that it's their fault. They rally against Social Security, calling a program that helps the elderly stay out of poverty, a crime. They cheer Paul Ryan essentially destroying Medicare. In short, they have done all the things on the list in this graphic. Trying to hide and pretend that they aren't this way is shirking responsibility. You can play whatever games you want but the Tea Party has become a niche organization whose influence is clearly waning. It's largely because their solutions are preposterous.
Really, Mark? The incidents that people have pointed out aren't indicative of the OWS "movement" (it certainly smells like a bowel movement around some of their camps) as a whole, yet you take a few outliers and claim they represent the entire TEA Party. What is wrong with your sense of fairness? Unless a majority of TEA Partiers showed up with guns (and that would have to be a million or more across the country, even a few dozen in a few places doesn't represent the movement as a whole. Yet you claim they do. I do not recall anyone making fun of the unemployed, and so yes, I would like you to give a link to such evidence that is so widespread that it is indicative of the movement as a whole and not just an fringe character.
In other words, apply the same standards to both groups you like and to groups you don't like and commenters would have no cause to expose rampant hypocrisy on parade. But since you do not, and the blindingly obvious double standards continue, we will show their conclusions to be wrong. We're not "losing our shit", we're just presenting the side of OWS you pretend doesn't exist and doesn't mean anything anyway, even if they do seem to be the majority at Oakland. Then you lose your shit over the fact that you're left looking like a fool except to other kool-aid drinkers and thumbsuckers, who I guess are your intended audience anyway.
We've shown you proof that your movement isn't as clean and angelic as you claim, and you repeatedly assert without proof how awful TEA Partiers were. Link the mocking of the unemployed, link the other stuff. SHOW US.
please show us similar acts of violence at TEA Party rallies
Obviously, we are still having trouble communicating. I'm not trying to equate the two movements. I'm trying to say that they are markedly different. I can't think of any incidents of violence at Tea Party but that's not what I'm trying to say about them. Generally speaking, they are the left hand column on this list. They aren't out shooting people but they sure as shit are blaming the victims by telling them, "It's all your fault, Get a life!" The comments that you guys are making are very similar to what was said about the protesters in the civil rights movement. And you are painting the OWS folks in the same way-dangerous, violent, drug addicts who publicly fornicate.
Link the mocking of the unemployed, link the other stuff. SHOW US.
And we're back to the not listening again. The youtube link above shows people cheering the Herman Cain comment regarding the unemployed. I've put up videos in other threads of the sick being mocked during the health care debate and of the current GOP debates in which executions were cheered, veterans jeered, and cat calls for letting a man die who didn't have insurance. Taking separately, you can call them outliers. Together, that's a party platform. It's not my fault that you don't pay attention to these links.
That wasn't a TEA Party rally! You have a serious reading comprehension problem, sir! Can we present something completely fucking unrelated to an OWS protest and claim it's representative of OWS without you calling foul? If not, why do you expect to be able to pull stupid shit like that without being called on it?
M: Obviously, we are still having trouble communicating. I'm not trying to equate the two movements. I'm trying to say that they are markedly different.
No shit, Sherlock. You're trying to claim that the OWSers are a much better group than the TEA Partiers, and apparently that almost anything bad that happens with them is excusable because their motives are so pure and noble (if hopelessly muddled and incoherent). What rank hypocrisy!
Every one come together now and sing the Awesome Anthem of the Self-Righteously More Moral Than Thou Markadelphia, "There're no standards like double standards!"
Wasn't one of the debates sponsored by the Tea Party? And are you also asserting that there weren't any Tea Partiers in the audience when Cain said his line?
I do think that the OWSers (love b to the w:)) have better principles because their simply looking to diminish corporate power in this country which has clearly become a cancer in many ways. They don't hate capitalism, Larry, they hate what's been done to it. The Tea Party now seems to want to continue this oligarchy. It's sad because they didn't use to be this way when they started.
And are you also asserting that there weren't any Tea Partiers in the audience when Cain said his line?
Well then, by that standard...
1. Grassroots movement - Lie. Unless you assert that they receive NO support from the SEIU or MoveOn.org. I suspect that if you ran the numbers, you'd find that OWS is funded by SEIU and MoveOn.org to a greater degree than the TEA Party is funded by the Koch brothers.
3. Participants provide free food, healthcare and emotional support to everyone present. - Lie. Or did you fail to notice the gripes by OWS about "providing food for freeloaders"?
4. Strives for inclusion and worldwide participation - Lie. I can direct you to video of OWSers complaining about Wall Street "being run by the Jews" if you're unable to find it on your own.
6. Committed to non-violence - Lie. Unless you assert that those who throw bottles and rocks are "committed to non-violence", not to mention the guy in Zuccotti Park who has threatened to stab people several times. Oh, and this:
We're being lectured on objectivity by a Troofer who cites Daily Kos as an unbiased source, and who considers it fair to call TEA Partiers "fascists" (no supporting evidence given), but thinks it's unfair to call someone a socialist whose mentor and whose former "green jobs czar" describe themselves as "communists".
48 comments:
Deluded is what you are.
You didn't get one thing right about the tea party (yes, I know you stole it). And yes, there are documented cases showing your 'Grassroots' movement is not grassroots, and is racist, and everything you claim it isn't.
Your ignorance is astounding. Astounding, even though we have all seen it on display before. Seriously, do you not read anything other than Daily KOS?!
Just keep f***ing that chicken, Mark. A true triple face palm fail.
We are the 99%!!!
Yep, that is an unbiased comparison of the two.
And I just love that non black-and-white approach, so full of nuance and shades of gray. What I really can't grasp is how you can say that of yourself and not bust out laughing.
No allegations of "rape-rape" or statutory rapes at TEA Parties, though.
Looks like at least one illegally rifle-toting felon has been arrested at Seattle OWS. Unlike the completely legal exercise of 2nd Amendment rights at a few TEA Parties. And remember when NBC tried to also make it a racial incident by cropping the video to hide the fact that the rifle-carrying man was in fact black?
Or the joker-painted idiot who pulled a bowie knife at the Austin OWS, and got his ass arrested.
Do you want more, Mark, or will you just retire to your bedroom, thumb in mouth, ready to resume f***ing that poor chicken, so that you can emerge fresh in the morning spouting The Truth as Talking Point Memo, Daily Kos, Democratic Underground, and Media Matters spoon feeds it to you?
It's amusing to watch you guys become unhinged as this movement eclipses The Tea Party. The flurry of recent overly antagonistic posts betrays your insecurity. Keep 'Em comin' boys!
unhinged?
I find them mostly amusing and a little bit annoying - certainly not anything to get worked up over.
The best part is the reaction to OWS by all the partisan players.
How about all those tea partiers who got busted selling heroin during their events!
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/pair-living-with-occupy-boston-protesters-arrested-for-selling-heroin/
Winter is coming and the snow will get them to shut up.
When the accusations of racism and bigotry are used, desperation is in the air. Yawn.
Keep trying, last et al and see my posts today. You're going to need a bigger boat:)
Winter is coming and the snow will get them to shut up.
Ok, gramps! And what if that doesn't happen?
Mark, if your opinions are so sound, why must you constantly distort and misrepresent the positions of those who hold different opinions? Why are you unable (or at least unwilling) to be honest in your descriptions?
distort and misrepresent
This is what I find most frustrating about these sorts of conversations. All I'm doing is repeating back what the people you support say. Apparently, you don't like that so you say that I am distorting things. There are seven things on this list about the Tea Party. Let's look at them again.
1. True. Fox News does cover Tea Party events extensively and advertises them.
2. Commonplace at Tea Party rallies. I've shown you a video that is illustrative of this. And your solution for the poor and sick is...what exactly? It's all their fault that they are sick and poor?
3. You are definitely anti union. Anti-poor, as I have stated above. Racist...yes, there are many racists on the right. Of course, you have your usual dance about this but it's classic denial. Bigoted and xenophobic-oh yeah. This is more prevalent than racism. It's rampant otherism. If people don't think like you, they are Marxists and enemies of the state.
4. The Tea Party is funded by the Koch Brothers.
5. People have gone to rallies with assault rifles and spat at members of Congress. And it is most definitely how fascism starts.
Don't agree? Fine. Show me the facts. Meanwhile, I have this...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42406957@N04/sets/72157622225596987/show/
4. The Tea Party is funded by the Koch Brothers.
How?
...and all Larry and I are doing with these links are showing you what the people you support are doing at these little sit ins. How about getting an 11 year old drunk!
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/article_21772c06-fe86-11e0-aec5-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1bq1SoSOt
If those signs from the flickr link is all you have as a response to the links we posted then I'll take that comparison any day.
All I'm doing is repeating back what the people you support say.
No M you don't. I understand that you may repeat what you think you hear - but that isn't the same as what people actually said to you. Your filters predistort so that it fits your fixed patterns. You really are incapable of getting past that - just as you will with this.
...and spat at members of Congress.
Proven to be a lie.
Racist epithets from Tea Party? Oh yeah, another lie by the left.
Tea Party AstroTurfed? Ha, again your a dumbass cause you listen to the dumbasses on the left. Tea Party starting point.
Yep, the very definition of a grassroots movement that picked up steam rapidly. And this movement targeted both the left and right and picked the correct cause of most of our problems today - government politicians.
Mock the sick and the poor? No again. Geez, you suck at this.
Tea Party Supports Food Bank
Tea Party Supports Food Bank number 2
Tea Party Supports Food Bank number 3
Tea Party Supports Food Bank number 4
Tea Party Supports Food Bank again
Pretty much if M says it, it probably is a debunked lie from his 'trusted' sources.
Ha, and I am a dumbass for not spelling correctly and grammar issues. My bad proofreading.
How?
I would recommend reading this article thoroughly.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer
Last, you're being childishly dishonest. Anyone with a brain knows that there are all sorts of outliers at events like this. These incidents are not indicative of the movement as a whole and are, more or less, exaggerated propaganda. With the Tea Party stuff, however, this is their platform. I'm certain that you will shrug and think this is all just my bias but if Dennis Kucinich and Buck Johnson were running the Democratic Party, I'd say that they are nuts as well.
6Kings, believe whatever you want. "Proven" by a right wing blog means nothing here or in reality for that matter. What else do you have? Let's see....the left is really the ones that are racist (a classic)...Michele Malkin (check for bias on your sources?)-this must be where I'm supposed to get mad and yell about her, right? Sorry, no more feeding the beast...and a series of Stosselesque pieces that show how kind and generous the Tea party really is...how quaint:)
About time for someone to start yelling about how Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme...
How many tea party folks brought assault weapons to the rallies then....a handful? It sounds like you think it was a common occurrence.
Your taunts of racism fall on deaf ears because you fling that charge around any chance you get.
"Proven" by a right wing blog means nothing here or in reality for that matter.
Mark, the self-proclaimed "critical thinker" uses yet another logical fallacy: the Genetic fallacy
When are you going to learn Marxy?!? A fallacy is NOT LOGIC!! If you are using something which is NOT LOGIC you are NOT using critical thinking.
About time for someone to start yelling about how Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme...
Nah.
Well M, you can spin your genetic fallacy argument all you want but when it comes down to it, is the argument true or not? You asked for facts and they were presented and show that everything you believe about the Tea Party to be false or at the very least distorted. Try absorbing and learning for once.
Here's another way to look at what I am saying, last. Yesterday, an Iraq war vet was injured by police in the Occupy Oakland rallies. Now, by your logic, I should be yelling about police brutality, how cops are assholes and the vet was completely innocent. This was likely not the case just like "what the people you support are doing at these little sit ins." (raping, doing drugs etc).
juris, "nah" and then you go ahead an do it anyway? Tsk tsk..
uses yet another logical fallacy: the Genetic fallacy
Well M, you can spin your genetic fallacy argument
There's a big difference between checking a source for bias and a genetic fallacy. The problem here is that you guys do it all the time with Michael Moore ("He's a proven liar so everything he says is wrong!") and Bill Maher so you naturally think that I do it when I question the bias of a source (another fine example of #3-Projection/Flipping).
Every source (including this site) should be checked for bias. This is why I'm pretty meticulous about not using Daily Kos, TPM or HuffPo a lot on this site. But it's OK for you guys to quote Brietbart? Very hypocritical and childish-not surprising. I'll make you guys a deal, though. I'll accept everything as truth in the above links if, in return, you guys accept seven links from Micheal Moore, Daily Kos, and TPM as truth. Better yet, I'll spend time researching Michele Malkin, for example, and fact checking her claims if you do the same for Micheal Moore. Remember, no genetic fallacy, just a fact check on statements with information from unbiased sources. Deal?
That all being said, I don't doubt that the Tea Party gives to charity but that's not the whole story which is why I use the term "Stosselesque." Stossel leaves out large swaths of truth when he spins his yarns. While the Tea Party gives to these charities, they are simultaneously arguing against Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Planned Parenthood, and a whole host of government programs that help millions of people every day. Why? Because of their theology about government which, in turn, is anti-poor.
The larger issue here is that you guys are alienating a very substantial portion of the population (the 9.1 percent unemployed) and saying that it's all their fault. You are painting them as hippies/communists etc and I think that is very foolish. Why? Because they are all going to vote next year.
juris, "nah" and then you go ahead an do it anyway? Tsk tsk..
Amazing, a teacher that can't read.
No, that's your logic. The chart you posted says "people show up with assault rifles". I'm aware of one incident but I'd think you would have a few more examples of that behavior you speak of like we do of the behavior we are talking about so your readers can decide for themselves exactly how common the activity actually is. If you can come up with a couple dozen examples, I'll remind you that "Anyone with a brain knows that there are all sorts of outliers at events like this."
http://www.redstate.com/jeff_emanuel/2011/10/25/elizabeth-warren-on-occupy-wall-street-i-created-the-intellectual-foundation-for-what-they-do-i-support-what-they-do/
Sure the name of the site is redstate but the links he linked to include Businessweek, local news webpages, Bloomberg, Politico, USAtoday, and the AP.
Social security, medicare, medicaid and planned parenthood are not my definition of charity. Do you consider those programs examples of charity? Is paying taxes Charity to you?
Speaking for myself, I'm not arguing against SS, medicare, or PP...I think those programs can be structured differently to make them more sustainable, which is what I consider success, not just having a popular program that helps people.
I've also never said job losses fall exclusively on the individual so I'm not sure who you are talking to here...probably your misrepresentation of our positions again.
Oh, I can read, juris. Saying it's a shell game is just as much of a lie as saying that it's Ponzi scheme. There's nothing hidden about how Social Security works. The article has the same intent: link Social Security to criminal activity. It's not criminal in any way and most people support it. You're just going to have to lump it.
I'm aware of one incident
http://newmexicoindependent.com/43847/video-alamogordo-tea-party-protesters-pack-heat
About 300 people attended an anti-Obama rally in Alamogordo Saturday, and many of the protesters showed up at the rally armed with holstered hand-guns and loaded assault rifles.
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/article_29e2c986-4671-11e0-924a-001cc4c03286.html
Tea party supporters toting guns gathered on the steps of the Montana Capitol on Friday
By "dozen" do you mean people or gatherings? I have plenty more if you'd like me to go on. What I find to be most frustrating, last, is that you doubt me and it's solely because of your bias. You really need to come to grips with the simple fact that folks on your side -MANY folks on your side-are just as I continually describe.
probably your misrepresentation of our positions again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aljWhgjAhk8
That's a GOP candidate with the audience cheering. Again, very frustrated that you are unwilling to accept the asshattery of conservatives.
Thanks for the examples. I wasn't aware of those. By dozens, I meant gatherings. We all know that Anyone with a brain knows that there are all sorts of outliers at events like this.
So there.
I guess if you think that bringing a gun to a rally where no laws were broken and no property was damaged is equal to accusations of rape, sexual assault, drug dealing, giving alcohol to underage kids, stealing, clashes with police, advocating killing the wealthy, spray painting property, etc, then we just have different definitions of asshattery.
I can't get on youtube at work so I can't view that video. Does my acceptance of something mean anything to anyone?
Both of those stories seem to illustrate that is was far more than just a couple of people.
Regarding your comparison, one other thing to consider is that we're talking about Oakland here for your list of horrendous criminal activity, correct? I think there is a big difference between Oakland and NYC-the epicenter of the movement. What sorts of crimes have occurred at Zuccotti Park? I honestly don't know that's why I'm asking.
Of course, the sorts of things that are happening in Oakland are exactly what I warned you guys about when I spoke of the president and the Democrats attempting to prevent a socialist revolution. None of us want that. Keep burying your heads in the sand about inequality and stoking those paranoid fantasies about the president, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, and Nancy Pelosi. Nothing like biting the hand that is feeding (and protecting) you....sheesh.
people show up unarmed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkE3GnsLF0w&feature=player_embedded
http://video.pbs.org/video/2160792049
Pay special attention at 3:10 Mark. There were shelters in the tax code back in your golden age? Who woulda thunk that?
Give it up.
Nice video sw. People showing up to an Occupy rally with guns who say they are there to protect their first amendment rights?
You've moved the goalposts Mark. So now our examples are only valid if there is violence at the main location in NYC?
The park owners say that sanitary conditions have reached unacceptable levels.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/10/07/occupy-wall-street-protest-prompts-concern-about-conditions-in-zuccotti-park/
Here's one from Baltimore where the Occupy crowd tells women who have been victims of sexual assault to not go to the police.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-10-19/news/bs-md-ci-occupy-baltimore-rape-20111019_1_sexual-assaults-sexual-abuse-report-crimes
Here's anther lovely update...
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/angry_manhattan_residents_lambast_RjpTU0jG2z9yrgf5o4bRcO
On this blog, you mentioned that a fox news employee was filmed rallying folks at a tea party rally. Here's an NPR employee who was fired for her involvement in the Occupy protest. Don't worry - I'm sure you and blk have no doubt whatsoever that NPR calls is straight down the middle.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-radio-host-fired-from-show-after-npr-questions-her-involvement-in-dc-protest/2011/10/20/gIQALtkG0L_print.html
Theft.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/criminal_occupation_oh3CnKANUqYHrGPCaZaLRK
My head isn't buried regarding inequality. I'm well aware that it exists. It has always existed and will always exist. I know you're going to respond that the level it is up to now is unacceptable to you. It's not unacceptable to me - it's a fact of life. I'm not concerned with tearing someone else down to make things level - I have more relevant things to occupy my time and attention - things that are within my sphere of influence - like my family. That does not mean I'm ok with criminal behavior btw. It's funny to see people be against crony capitalism while voting for their version of the cronies.
You will never get rid of or change the level of inequality to any great extent. Hence, your fight will continue to infinity and you will always have the term Inequality to pin on the wall.
Since you're so insistent on dismissing anything you consider "biased", given who you most often quote here one must presume you consider Paul Krugman and Bill Maher to be shining examples of credible, unbiased sources, right?
As well as the site where you got the graphic this is the comment thread for, of course.
What is the source of this graphic, by the way?
Wow, this OWS movement is really making you guys shit yourselves hence the childish scramble to "prove" that they are all a bunch of criminals. I guess it's now going to be propaganda piece after propaganda piece which show how awful they all really are. What a giant sack of childish dishonesty and complete fail at critical thinking. When you are ready for the latter, here you go.
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2011/10/world/hires.occupy.irpt/index.html
Time to go find some stories on these folks. I bet they are all rapers of children. Honestly, both of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves but blaming the victim is classic right wing horse shit.
You will never get rid of or change the level of inequality to any great extent.
That's the most preposterous thing you have ever written on here. It's also patently wrong if you look at the history of this country. I guess I was hoping for some sort of qualitative analysis from you about degrees of inequality but I guess that's not going to happen. I put up a link to an IMF report about how more inequality hampers a state's ability to compete. Did you read it? If so, discuss the facts they present. It's filled with data. If not, do so.
Inequality is always going to be around in free trade and free market cultures. The degree of inequality is what I am talking about here. I've said this many times but I guess you didn't pay attention (there must have been someone who lost their home due to Wall Street casino BS that needed to be accused of being a pedophile) but I have no problem with their being unfairness in our society. That's the nature of capitalism. What I have a problem with is that when it becomes so bad there is stagnation and a lag behind other countries. We can ill afford to have that happen considering what a more robust China could bring to a new power balance.
Sooner or later, you are going to have to set aside your reluctance to admit that I'm right about something and accept what is happening.
Huh, I'm definitely not seeing the adultness of the dipshit table "proving" how awful the Tea Partiers are and how wonderful the OWSers are. I can't imagine how you can honestly think that that promotes any kind of discussion.
Why don't you just call us all fascist suckers of corporate cock again, and then wonder how anyone could possibly get offended? Asshole.
Occupy Madison loses permit over health and safety violations, inappropriate behaviour such as public masturbation
Occupy Wall Street kitchen staff protesting fixing food for freeloaders
"Hey! We're not here to provide for those less fortunate than us! We're here to demand stuff from those more fortunate than us!"
It's a good thing the Occupy Oakland crowd is so mainstream, else we'd make unfavorable comparisons to the TEA Party.
And of course, you decline to answer my questions, or acknowledge their existence at all. Why am I not surprised...
It's not a scramble - it's quite easy to do. I don't think they are all criminals. I just think there are better ways for them to address their problems instead of banging on a drum all day in a park.
If the content of the news stories we have posted here are just propaganda then post the link that refutes them. Our links are no different than the links you referenced about the tea party, but only your links are examples of critical thinking. Got it.
I'm not blaming any grand problems on them. My links were put up to disprove your notion that the protesters are some actual representation of a majority of this nation. They aren't. When the protests end, nothing will have changed, but you'll still have your intentions to fall back on.
I don't have time to do much quantitative analysis on inequality. It's month end at work and we are very busy, plus I have lots of family stuff going on this weekend. Inequality exists and it always will. It's a fact of life I am quite comfortable with and since I know that there is a difference between being educated and being wise, I know that my position in life is not going to improve by yelling at bankers from a park.
I don't think you are right here. I don't think this is a mainstream movement. I don't think that conservatives need to be careful when talking about the protesters. I think that the worst things you have found at tea party rallies don't even compare to the examples we have posted here.
Thanks for bringing up China again. The Left (you, blk, Friedman, etc) does love to press its nose against the window of the world and talk about how things are better “over there" and right now, the prettiest flower is China (so they think). In the late 80's, everyone thought Japan was going to seize economic center stage in the world. Those writings seem pretty stupid now don't they? Like every other country, China has problems...many of which aren’t reflected in its GDP growth rates and since it lacks democracy, a free press, and the rule of law, we can’t know what all of the problems are until they explode (and neither can the Chinese). Saying China is doing the best misses a pretty big point. Economic competitiveness statistics are a con. It assumes that when other countries prosper, America loses. Doesn't work like that. If the average Chinese worker were as rich as the average Ukranian worker, it would be an economic windfall for the United States. Conversely, if China’s economy imploded tomorrow, we would gain competitively.
I was going over my Roth IRA info today and I remembered when you posted a link on here (April 3, 2011) where you said that a mutual fund expense ratio of .50 was an example of rich people fucking people over. My expense ratio is .26, way lower than .50. Was that a propaganda piece or an example of critical thinking?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKy22KsxX9k
I find it hilarious that OWS (and you) are coming down on the side of... David Duke.
not seeing the adultness of the dipshit table "proving" how awful the Tea Partiers are and how wonderful the OWSers are.
Look, Larry, in any movement like this, there is going to be incidents of violence. That's simply how it works. I have no doubt that there will be more violence especially in cities like Oakland.
But they aren't indicative of the OWS movement as a whole. Yet, the Tea Party proudly carries guns to meetings and tells the unemployed that it's their fault. They rally against Social Security, calling a program that helps the elderly stay out of poverty, a crime. They cheer Paul Ryan essentially destroying Medicare. In short, they have done all the things on the list in this graphic. Trying to hide and pretend that they aren't this way is shirking responsibility. You can play whatever games you want but the Tea Party has become a niche organization whose influence is clearly waning. It's largely because their solutions are preposterous.
you decline to answer my questions
Not sure if you are new here but I don't respond to anonymous posters anymore. Pick a name and I will.
I just think there are better ways for them to address their problems instead of banging on a drum all day in a park.
Seriously, when did you become 90? This is such a caricature. See the link I put up and read their stories. I hope you change your mind.
post the link that refutes them.
See my comment above to Larry. You're not being completely honest about the information nor are you taking into account the bias of the sources. When the OWS formally calls for public fornication and urination (as the Tea Party has called for destroying successful social programs that help people), then you'll have a valid argument. There's no equating the two right now.
I know that my position in life is not going to improve by yelling at bankers from a park.
So, I guess all those people that engaged in the civil rights movement wasted their time as well. Last, the Wall Street Journal is reporting that more millionaires want to be taxed at higher rates now and want inequality to be less than it is. I'd say they are starting to have an effect.
. I think that the worst things you have found at tea party rallies don't even compare to the examples we have posted here.
The worst thing about the Tea Party movement is their entire platform. It's a fucking disaster that has no place in our world today and would do great harm to our country in the global marketplace.
I brought up China because we don't want them achieving any sort of hegemenonic power in the world. You think our government is totalitarian? If we don't address our issues of social cohesion and inequality, there is no doubt that China's influence in the world, which is going to be substantial anyway, will undercut free market progress. You really need to read that IMF report.
Regarding your Roth IRA, are you saying your annual fee is .26 and it is locked in? The other thing to consider is that this was a study in 2006. Things may have changed since that time. If this is true, though, it doesn't somehow magically prove that you have just as many advantages as the uber wealthy in this country. There are obviously other factors.
M: Look, Larry, in any movement like this, there is going to be incidents of violence. That's simply how it works. I have no doubt that there will be more violence especially in cities like Oakland.
Mark, please show us similar acts of violence at TEA Party rallies (that weren't instigated by SEIU goons).
M: But they aren't indicative of the OWS movement as a whole. Yet, the Tea Party proudly carries guns to meetings and tells the unemployed that it's their fault. They rally against Social Security, calling a program that helps the elderly stay out of poverty, a crime. They cheer Paul Ryan essentially destroying Medicare. In short, they have done all the things on the list in this graphic. Trying to hide and pretend that they aren't this way is shirking responsibility. You can play whatever games you want but the Tea Party has become a niche organization whose influence is clearly waning. It's largely because their solutions are preposterous.
Really, Mark? The incidents that people have pointed out aren't indicative of the OWS "movement" (it certainly smells like a bowel movement around some of their camps) as a whole, yet you take a few outliers and claim they represent the entire TEA Party. What is wrong with your sense of fairness? Unless a majority of TEA Partiers showed up with guns (and that would have to be a million or more across the country, even a few dozen in a few places doesn't represent the movement as a whole. Yet you claim they do. I do not recall anyone making fun of the unemployed, and so yes, I would like you to give a link to such evidence that is so widespread that it is indicative of the movement as a whole and not just an fringe character.
In other words, apply the same standards to both groups you like and to groups you don't like and commenters would have no cause to expose rampant hypocrisy on parade. But since you do not, and the blindingly obvious double standards continue, we will show their conclusions to be wrong. We're not "losing our shit", we're just presenting the side of OWS you pretend doesn't exist and doesn't mean anything anyway, even if they do seem to be the majority at Oakland. Then you lose your shit over the fact that you're left looking like a fool except to other kool-aid drinkers and thumbsuckers, who I guess are your intended audience anyway.
We've shown you proof that your movement isn't as clean and angelic as you claim, and you repeatedly assert without proof how awful TEA Partiers were. Link the mocking of the unemployed, link the other stuff. SHOW US.
Never mind, I found it without your help. I just Googled "Tea Party Occupy Wall St":
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/25/1029863/-Occupy-Wall-Street-already-has-at-least-as-much-support-as-tea-party
You're not being completely honest about the information nor are you taking into account the bias of the sources.
Um, yeah.
And here we with proof that the TEABAGGERS are RACIST, VIOLENT, and DISGUSTING.. It's from a Mark-approved unbiased site, even!
In other news, Mark's chicken is about shagged out. Good news or tragedy?
This is why I'm pretty meticulous about not using Daily Kos, TPM or HuffPo a lot on this site.
Now that's funny!
please show us similar acts of violence at TEA Party rallies
Obviously, we are still having trouble communicating. I'm not trying to equate the two movements. I'm trying to say that they are markedly different. I can't think of any incidents of violence at Tea Party but that's not what I'm trying to say about them. Generally speaking, they are the left hand column on this list. They aren't out shooting people but they sure as shit are blaming the victims by telling them, "It's all your fault, Get a life!" The comments that you guys are making are very similar to what was said about the protesters in the civil rights movement. And you are painting the OWS folks in the same way-dangerous, violent, drug addicts who publicly fornicate.
Link the mocking of the unemployed, link the other stuff. SHOW US.
And we're back to the not listening again. The youtube link above shows people cheering the Herman Cain comment regarding the unemployed. I've put up videos in other threads of the sick being mocked during the health care debate and of the current GOP debates in which executions were cheered, veterans jeered, and cat calls for letting a man die who didn't have insurance. Taking separately, you can call them outliers. Together, that's a party platform. It's not my fault that you don't pay attention to these links.
That wasn't a TEA Party rally! You have a serious reading comprehension problem, sir! Can we present something completely fucking unrelated to an OWS protest and claim it's representative of OWS without you calling foul? If not, why do you expect to be able to pull stupid shit like that without being called on it?
M: Obviously, we are still having trouble communicating. I'm not trying to equate the two movements. I'm trying to say that they are markedly different.
No shit, Sherlock. You're trying to claim that the OWSers are a much better group than the TEA Partiers, and apparently that almost anything bad that happens with them is excusable because their motives are so pure and noble (if hopelessly muddled and incoherent). What rank hypocrisy!
Every one come together now and sing the Awesome Anthem of the Self-Righteously More Moral Than Thou Markadelphia, "There're no standards like double standards!"
So the bottom line is that Krugman, Maher, and things like this piece you lifted from Daily Kos are examples of what you consider "unbiased".
'Nuff said.
That wasn't a TEA Party rally!
Wasn't one of the debates sponsored by the Tea Party? And are you also asserting that there weren't any Tea Partiers in the audience when Cain said his line?
I do think that the OWSers (love b to the w:)) have better principles because their simply looking to diminish corporate power in this country which has clearly become a cancer in many ways. They don't hate capitalism, Larry, they hate what's been done to it. The Tea Party now seems to want to continue this oligarchy. It's sad because they didn't use to be this way when they started.
And are you also asserting that there weren't any Tea Partiers in the audience when Cain said his line?
Well then, by that standard...
1. Grassroots movement - Lie. Unless you assert that they receive NO support from the SEIU or MoveOn.org. I suspect that if you ran the numbers, you'd find that OWS is funded by SEIU and MoveOn.org to a greater degree than the TEA Party is funded by the Koch brothers.
3. Participants provide free food, healthcare and emotional support to everyone present. - Lie. Or did you fail to notice the gripes by OWS about "providing food for freeloaders"?
4. Strives for inclusion and worldwide participation - Lie. I can direct you to video of OWSers complaining about Wall Street "being run by the Jews" if you're unable to find it on your own.
6. Committed to non-violence - Lie. Unless you assert that those who throw bottles and rocks are "committed to non-violence", not to mention the guy in Zuccotti Park who has threatened to stab people several times. Oh, and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlPY9AfQFqI
So let's see...
We're being lectured on objectivity by a Troofer who cites Daily Kos as an unbiased source, and who considers it fair to call TEA Partiers "fascists" (no supporting evidence given), but thinks it's unfair to call someone a socialist whose mentor and whose former "green jobs czar" describe themselves as "communists".
Someone left the irony on.
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