A reader down in comments suggested that I respond to a post by just dave from the 14 points of Fascism thread. I want to say right off the bat that I really should do this more often. There are some really great things written in comments every day and from now on, I will take the time to bring them out top more often, as is the case with the post left by just dave.
His post also touches on some things I have wanted to talk about lately so without further adieu, let's break down this little ditty and have some fun.
His first point, in a nutshell:
I extended this to corporations in my comment as well and can provide examples of fascist policies...What party, here and now, looks for that kind of control? Who wants more and more regulation on business? The control looked for by the left should simply leave one gob smacked.The real problem dave has here is that he is operating under a false paradigm. In 2008, we are not trying to protect business from government...we are trying to protect government (which is us, btw) from business. Take a look at most members of Congress and tell me who has more power...them or the lobbyists? This is true of both Democrats and Republicans. Honestly, does dave think that the US Congress is more powerful right now than Blackwater? KBR? Haliburton? I would like him to illustrate how this might be. What him and others that post here suffer from is corporate dick envy. They view companies such as these as being the way to succeed in life which, ironically, is the exact opposite of the values they purport to represent. I equate their beliefs about corporate America to an eternal school yard crush or blind love-whichever you want.
His second point, in a nutshell:
The media angle we simply will not agree on...it doesn’t matter a lick who “owns” the stations because they’re not the ones on the air talking.... must take people like Dan Rather at their word...Ah, the "media is liberal" argument. How much money did Rush Limbaugh just get? How long of a contract extension? What are his ratings? What about Fox News? There are plenty of conservative owned media out there with far and wide tentacles that are akin to the so called liberal media. I say so called because it does matter who owns the stations. I challenge dave or anyone else for that matter to find me a liberal on the board of GE or Viacom. Or on any board in "liberal" Hollywood. In addition, compare the media's coverage of the Vietnam war with the current one. Iraq is heavily censored and all of the big networks are told by their corporate masters to not show images that make America look bad. It's bad for business.
His Third Point, in a nutshell:
Human rights… Why didn’t you provide an example? Liberalism cheapens life with policies of abortion and euthanasia. Really, dave? How many people have we killed in Iraq? How many of them were children? When it comes to the sanctity of life argument, you will get no respect from me as long as you continue with this glaring hypocrisy.
I think you need to re-read this post and take another look at these pictures which, btw, the "liberal" media has never showed anywhere and then, please tell me who cheapens life.
As for an example on human rights abuses,
how about this one? Didn't you call me "loony" a long time ago for comparing our poor human rights record, under Bush Co, with that of China? Well, I guess your pals have decided that the Chinese method of torture (from 1957!) isn't all that bad and so they stole it.
Would you like another one? Chained to the ceiling of an airplane hangar for days. Awesome! That really will show those bad guys....right to bin Laden's door to happily be fitted for a vest. Or about how about another
one on the subject of water boarding? And this is from a guy who supports the Iraq War. Dave, we are acting the same way they do...doesn't this bother you at all?
His Third Point, in a nutshell
Religion. We have very different reads on our own history. Seems to me the Pilgrims were seeking religious freedom, not to have religion expunged from their lives. LIL already covered this in fine detail.I would recommend that dave, and everyone else for that matter, read
Lies My Teacher Told Me by James Loewen. The book describes various accounts throughout our history of how we have glorified certain people (e.g. Woodrow Wilson, Stephen Douglas) and how we don't assign blame to anything bad that we have done. It all happens anonymously. It is the most honest account of our own history, which includes religion and government, that I have ever read.
His Last Point, parceled out with commentary:
Yes, I do believe we are safer today under George Bush than we would be under Al Gore or John Kerry. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind and no way that I could be dissuaded from this fact.Thanks for proving my point about how open minded the right is when it comes to their thought process.
Here are some facts for dave and other who believe this line of thought, to consider.
Fact #1: President Bush spent the entire month of August, 2001, on vacation. Up to 9-11, he had spent more time on vacation than any other president in that same amount of time.
Fact #2: Al Qaeda attacked us on 9-11.
Fact #3: Osama bin Laden and Ayman Al Zawahari are the heads of Al Qaeda.
Fact #4: Both are still at large, nearly 7 years after the attacks, and, according to Bush's own NIE, have rebuilt their capabilities inside of Pakistan, to carry out attacks that would rival or surpass 9-11. This same NIE said that the war in Iraq has made it easier for Al Qaeda to recruit members and train them.
Fact #5: Al Qaeda was not in Iraq before we invaded in March of 2003.
You are supporting a belief, dave, not a fact. And it is a terribly blind one. If Al Gore had spent the entire month of August 2001 on vacation,was handed a report that said "Al Qaeda determined to attack inside US," and did nothing about it, even in light of all of the previous attacks (Cole, Khobar Towers), you and I would be an agreement. As it stands, your statement proves that you are stuck in belief system that ignores key facts, like those mentioned above. Or, perhaps you can't admit when you are wrong, which would make sense because that's how Bush Co acts all the time.
The bad guys say they want to get us…the bad guys have tried to get us but have been thwarted…and the bad guys are on the defensive because we’re not waiting for them to come get us, we’re actively going after them.
No, we're not. If we were, we would have finished the job in Afghanistan (see Gary Berntsen's Jawbreaker), conducted operations inside of Pakistan, and worked with our European allies to crack down on "bad guys" in places like Holland, Denmark, and England. Who are we fighting in Iraq now, dave? The Pentagon said last fall that Al Qaeda is all but eliminated in Iraq. Honestly, what is our mission there? First, it was WMDs. OK, fine. We took care of that. Then it was Hussein. He's dead. Done with that. Then it was Al Qaeda in Iraq. They're finished. And people like you are saying that if we leave now, we will be defeated? By whom?
You seem to constantly search for enemies that aren't there and, oddly, completely ignore the ones that are there and represent a very serious threat. Why is this so?
Clinton, Kerry, Obama are all on record as favoring “talk”, policing agencies and the courts to combat terrorism which is in fact the policy that was in place pre-9/11. How else can this be said? How can it even be debated?Clinton bombed Al Qaeda when he was in office. He almost killed bin Laden and would've if bin Laden hadn't decided to go somewhere else. Can the same be said of Bush? Both Kerry and Obama want to bomb targets inside of Pakistan. So they aren't all just about talk. But talk is important (see Bush and North Korea). Talking does not mean appeasement. This another great example of your side's Orwellian doublespeak which preys upon the fear of the unknown.
Dave's PS, in a nutshell
I'm finishing this little nugget while watching the Euro2008 Championship. Events like this are great on so many levels. I particularly enjoy the patriotism the fans show throughout the tournament by displaying their flags and singing songs. It is so striking to think that you and your followers would never be at an event like that...would never show that type of pride in their country. How very sad.
Actually, what is sad is how little you understand "me and my followers." I have been to five baseball games this year and loved singing the national anthem every single time. I love this country. I think it is the best on the planet, even with all of its faults. And the faults are the real problem, aren't they? I look at them, reflect, and wonder how can we do better. You ignore them, re-direct, and say, "Fuck you, you are a traitor". As Mark Twain once said, "I support my country all of the time and my government when they deserve it."
Once the embarrassment that is our current administration leaves office, it is my hope that more people will be proud of this country. The real problem here, dave, and I think the Cliff May/Ed Schultz exchange below exemplifies this, is that you are under the impression that your side get exclusive rights to define what is and what isn't patriotic. You, and others on the right, also think, and this really makes sense in juxtaposition with your perceived grasp of patriotism, that you get exclusive rights to define what the Bible means and, in particular, who is and who isn't a Christian.
You don't get to.
Thankfully, there is a whole country full of people out there with different views then your own. Views that are much more reflective than "There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind and no way that I could be dissuaded from this fact." These are the people that are going to restore some since of respectability to America. From now on, when it comes to defining patriotism and Christianity, you are going to have to get through them first, dave.
And me.
One final parting word of advice: I would be careful as to who you define as not having pride in their country. There are plenty of liberals that I know that won't be as nice as I have been. You see, dave, they live in "flyover" country too and they don't take too kindly to people questioning their patriotism.
But, hey, by all means, ignore what I say and please continue to do so. It just means another pile of votes for my guy!