Contributors

Monday, June 11, 2007

Ah, the reluctant warrior

General Colin Powell was on Meet the Press yesterday. As usual, he had many insightful and intelligent things to say. On the subject of Guantanamo Bay, he said that it had become a "major problem" in the way that Americans were perceived around the world.

"If it were up to me, I would close Gitmo-not tomorrow but this afternoon."

Huh. This is what we need more of...someone every American respects speaking the glaringly obvious truth...

For the full transcript and videos of the show, click here.

28 comments:

Anonymous said...

How about Obama-Powell in 08? Wouldn't that be grand?

Anonymous said...

Aw, shit. If they close Gitmo down we won't get to tortue the shit out of brown people for no reason.....what will be my purpose in life?

Anonymous said...

Since you don't want Al Queda in gitmo, maybe you could locate them some real estate in your neighborhood jesse. That would give you a new purpose.

johnwaxey said...

hf...I don't know if you are trying to be funny or if you are trying to make a statement about whether the people at Guantanamo Bay should continue to be incarcerated. If it was your intent to recast the argument in terms of what should be done with these people, perhaps you should consider that no one in the general public knows what these people have done or specifically why they are being held. They may very well be the worst scum of the earth and deserve far worse than they are getting. However, because there has been a complete end-run around the justice system and flat-out refusal to charge these individuals with specific crimes, we, as the general public cannot asses for ourselves the guilt or innocence of these people. Instead, we are left to blindly trust the government that they are doing the right thing by holding them. I do not trust the Executive Branch of the government to make those decisions without oversight by at least one other branch. Nor should you.

One of the very powerful and admirable aspects of this country has been the openness of its judicial system. The result has been a relatively stable civil environment that has avoided the stigma of say...Soviet or Nazi or El Salvador style justice where people disappear in the middle of the night for crimes they may or may not have caused. This has allowed people in this country to not live in fear of their government, which in turn has led to relative stability.

The issue that you raise here by your snide remark is not simply whether these people are guilty of crimes or not, but rather whether the Executive Branch should be allowed the power to imprison people in this country or another country simply on the virtue that certain officials feel that they can, even if they feel it is in the best interests of the country. We The People set up branches of government to prevent abuse of power by any given individual or individuals because history tells us quite plainly that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts absolutely. To concentrate power in the hands of a small group of power without checks and balances or oversight is to create a situation that is fundamentally un-Constitutional and extraordinarily unhealthy for a democratic republic.

Many people who have contributed to this blog have relegated criticism of this administration to simple hatred or sour grapes rather than consider the implications of creating a sole "Decider" (as George Bush has frequently referred to himself)and the nearly unchecked expansion of Executive Branch powers. People who criticize George Bush's administration do not simply mistrust them, they are expressing a healthy mistrust of government that should extend to all administrations and all government. Some may simplify this mistrust as being "unpatriotic", but the reality is that this mistrust is what keeps our government relatively honest with its constituents.

Anonymous said...

"perhaps you should consider that no one in the general public knows what these people have done or specifically why they are being held."

Thank you, John, for stating the obvious...apparently completely lost on hf..

Anonymous said...

Doesn't the military take Al Queda they capture on the battlefield there?

Jesse/John, please inform us what we should do with members of Al Queda we capture? Should we give all of them lawyers? Perhaps we wouldn't need GITMO if we just made every Al Queda mission a suicide mission (aided by us of course).

btw Jesse, those so-called instances of "abuse" of the koran at GITMO were all uncovered by internal Army investigations. The minute the Army gets wind of minor misconduct it swiftly removes and prosecutes those involved.

Anonymous said...

Again, hf, missing the point entirely. You're doing the classic Bushie language manipulation thing markadelphia always talks about sprinkled with the ol fear card thrown in..."We must torture Al Qaeda, detain them without a trial etc...trust us and we will keep you safe." All lies.

The United States is not a country that illegally detains people, without trial, tortures them and then "disappears" them. That is what our enemies do. People have been sqawking to markadelphia and true blue here about how he is nuts when he says we are like Iran or Venezuela. Explain to me how Gitmo and the other bases we have somewherein the world are different from Iran and etc...

We are better than them...at least we used to be...

Anonymous said...

No, jesse, we aren't.

Anonymous said...

Where did I say torture was ok? Not sure which posting you read there bucko.

Anonymous said...

I promised myself I wouldn’t argue w/ people who claim the moon is made of Swiss cheese, but sometimes I can't help myself… So here’s a quick little exercise for those mentally challenged…

Are we better than Iran, you ask? (Actually you didn’t; you just said we’re ‘not’ better than Iran; specifically regarding Gitmo.) Well, let’s discuss this for a minute…

Are our prisoners’ heads still attached? USA 1 – 0 Iran
Does this so-called “torture” leave any permanent damage? USA 2 – 0 Iran
Do Iranians utilize “mental torture” or more stringent methods? USA 3 – 0 Iran
Does Iran provide 3-hots-and-a-cot? USA 4 – 0 Iran
Does Iran provide spiritually correct showering facilities? USA 5 – 0 Iran
Do Iranians prosecute their guards for mistreatment of prisoners? USA 6 – 0 Iran
Does the US jail people for homosexuality? USA 7 – 0 Iran
Does the US jail people for practicing Christianity? USA 8 – 0 Iran
Does the US jail women for not wearing a veil? USA 9 – 0 Iran
Does Iran provide entertainment to its prisoners? USA 10 – 0 Iran
Does Iran provide sports equipment to prisoners? USA 11 – 0 Iran
Does Iran provide prisoners their spiritual book of choice? USA 12 – 0 Iran
Does Iran provide spiritually specific meals to prisoners? USA 13 – 0 Iran
Does Iran allow time off from torture for prayers? USA 14 – 0 Iran
Do Iranian guards apply proper etiquette while handling the Torah? USA 15 – 0 Iran
Shall I go on?...

Add ‘em up…perhaps your math skills are better than your analytical reasoning.

Mark Ward said...

Since some frightening things are being said in my other post regarding homosexuality, some of which I will respond to when I can clear the throw up from my mouth, I thought it would be a more happier thing to debate torture. Sheesh..

To your questions Dave,

Heads? Yes, they still have heads.

Permanent Damage? Ah, how do we know this for sure when we don't know who is down there and what they are accused of? The press isn't allowed to talk to them...which, althought heavily scripted, at least Iran allowed the press to do in the case of the British soliders.

Mental Torture? Cheney is on record saying that we do. So does Iran.

Hots and a Cot? No, they don't

Showers? No

Guards? No

Homosexuals? No, but they are currently second class citizens. I expect more from the land of the "free." See the comments about homosexuals in the above post for people that would rejoice in doing what the Iranian do to homosexuals.

Jail for religion? No, but how do Christians in this country feel about non-Christians? How likely do you think it is that we will ever elect an anthiest president? I agree we aren't as extreme as Iran but we are not as tolerant of non Christians as you might think.

Entertainment? No

Sports? No

Spiritual Book? No

Meals? No they don't but I have heard conflicting stories as to whether or not we do.

Time off? No, but there is evidence that our prayer set up for Muslims is a cage over 120 degrees? Not exactly laying out the red carpet.

Etiquette? Yes

By my count the US is not like Iran in 9 ways, exactly like Iran in 2 ways, and possibly like them in 4 more ways. Completely unacceptable.

Also, I think you should go on because you have missed several key question: is every single person at Gitmo an enemy combatent? Are all of them unequivically guilty? Are you certain? Who are they, exactly?

There is a reason why General Powell wants to close Gitmo. He knows what is going on down there--more than you or I do--and he knows that it's wrong. I think you respect him, as I do, immensely so does his opinion count for something?

Mark Ward said...

Add on to the mental torture and stringent method thing...

Cheney and other neocons are on record as saying that all forms of toture are OK, mental or otherwise, which is exactly what Iran does.

Anonymous said...

Not saying anyone should, but some of you may be happier living on another part of this planet. You have the freedom to do that.

Mark Ward said...

One more thing,

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jun12/0,4670,EnemyCombatant,00.html

SW, I would be happier living in the United States that I used to know, not the one I live in now.

Anonymous said...

hey dave, don't know where you get your information about Iran or their record of detentions and imprisonments from, even Iranian-sponsored guerilla groups (in Lebanon or Iraq) let me guess... Fox News (which i avidly watch for their 'Extra' infotainment segments..) or PNAC (which gave us 'IRAQ'...) It would be funny if it weren't so sad that an invasion of a country which has led to at least half a million civilian deaths in 4 years and God knows how many deaths of young people in their prime not to mention the living forever scarred, on the US side, and the random rounding up of 'suspects' as of 2003 -- i.e. any male over the age of 15, naturally bearded (because that's a T dead-giveaway) in the poorest slums of Shia-dominated Iraq or Sunni-dominated Afghanistan, let's simplify by just calling it 'Islamic' countries -- because we're fighting a War on Terror, sorry, Islamo-Fascism, sorry, Extremism -- by using the world's most terrifying, fascist (i.e. ruled by superpower AWOL Executive will, rather than the branches of the biggest & wealthiest government on earth acting in just & informed balance) & extreme weapons and methods... all that somehow adds up to the USA winning against Iran ??? Iran : a country the US invaded by stealth in 1954, deposing a democratically elected government in favour of a 'regime change' Shah whose US-trained & equipped secret police (SAVAK) terrorised (killed tortured & disappeared by the thousands) the Iranian population, a la Chile (another democratic government we overthrew in favour of a terrorising military dictatorship..) into a reactionary anti-US, anti-SHAH, religious revolution of 1979 -- the repercussions of which we're still living with today.. Watch this space for IRAN-US showdown media circus 2008. Iran : a country whom we invaded by proxy in 1981, arming our close ally Saddam Hussein to kill millions of Iranians in an 8-year war which we funded, including sending chemical weapons to Mr Hussein. He later used these against his own people. So, I'll just take your comment with a pinch of salt. In this so-called age of globalisation, Americans should take that to mean more than carte blanche to plunder world resorces but should hopefully learn more about other cultures and history too. As Abraham Lincoln once said : History is not History unless it is the Truth.

Anonymous said...

You misconstrue my meaning on the “mental torture” vs “more stringent methods”. I was not saying we don’t utilize mental torture; of course we do and so does Iran. I meant that it’s our primary means of “torture” w/ a sprinkling of nominal physical torture. But the point is that it’s nothing in comparison to that of Iran. I’d opt for sleep deprivation, having a dog bark at me or a punch in the face over 50 lashes or having my head lopped off any day of the week.

And you mention al-Marri like it’s some kind of “I told you so” moment… Even though he was lawfully in the United States on a student visa, he was in contact with 9/11 chief Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others. He’s not an American citizen and as a member of an al Qaeda sleeper cell, his efforts were acts of war rather than mere crimes…so he’s just as much an enemy combatant as someone pulled off the battlefield.

But the point of my little exercise is already proven. I won’t even debate you on the items from my short list you disagree with (even though I know I’m right), because the point is that you DID agree with 9 to 14 items right off the bat…ipso facto, the US is NOT in the same league as Iran as far as this example goes. …which after all was the point of my post; exposing some of these posters claiming such things as the dolts they are.

Anonymous said...

Tsk, tsk, well, I’m sorry ‘Everyday People’ that you’re still in angst from coming out on the losing side of the cold war but do you really want to debate the ins and outs of every cold war operation since the 50s? And even if we did, it’d be moot because my point from above, although made in a rather flippant manner, is still correct. Even Mark, a far cry from a conservative, has agreed with the better portion of it. So go ahead and bash America all you want, we’re still a better place (and treat our prisoners better) than Iran. Heck, you should thank your lucky stars you are an American or you’d be tucked under a veil and banned from education and voting in the country you’re defending.

Mark Ward said...

Dave,

I think Everyday raises some interesting points about the history of Iran and I would be interested to hear your comments about US involvement through the years there and how it pertains to today. It seems to me that we bear at least half of the responsibility of our poor relations with that country. Our actions since 1954 have been simply sub human...very much in line with many of the things President Achmenijad is doing today.

To me, it's the tactics that are different. Iran is more obviously awful about how they treat people. We are more subtle but the end result is still the same....human suffering. It's hard for you (and I) to really understand it because thus far we have been fortunate enough to not have to go through it. Our media is barely scratching the surface on what we are doing...y'know, Paris Hilton IS the most important person in our country after all :)

Anonymous said...

It's amusing how people who never travel to Islamic-majority countries or spend any time there think the women there have no rights :) Can't dress how they like, walk in the streets alone day or night, dressed how they like without being bothered (except in countries we're now occupying,) marry who they like, initiate divorce if they don't like their husband and be automatically entitled to their own house and half his earnings, own property, head businesses, be in government, go to night clubs if that's their scene, or do anything that they want to do, day or night. Iran's dress code is a LOT more flexible and open to interpretation than Saudia Arabia's, whom we never criticise because of our dependence on their oil. Every other muslim majority state, including Iraq BEFORE we invaded it, looks just like an everyday scene in a european or american city - you'd never say 'why is that woman veiled?' in the streets of London, because standing next to her would be girls in shorts. That's freedom, the freedom to CHOOSE your lifestyle, not have it forced upon you, so i agree with you Dave, if anyone is dressed or deprived of their rights by their or an occupying government's in any way -- it's bad and that's what we should be fighting, peacefully and not with hypocrisy or lack of information but with logic and outreach. i thank God i'm an American because i don't have to live the most dangerous depressing and stressful life on earth which is a Palestinian's in their occupied homeland, where one in four of the hundreds of noncombatant civilians killed last year by the occupying forces alone were children, three children were shot dead yesterday by israel in Gaza, who cares about that?? We care less about the lack of freedom or oppression and deprivation suffered by everyday peoples in countries we consider 'friendly' and on our side. Dave thinks the Cold War is a thing of the past, it never ended, we just gave it a new name, so every single act committed in the name of fighting reds is now going on in the name of fighting extremists, except we're in THEIR countries, stealing THEIR natural resources (through 'oil' laws which we write that give the lion's share to us companies.) Al Qaeda didn't EXIST before the late 1990s, and it's still funded by our best friends in the Gulf. It's okay to torture and kill and rape (open your eyes, it happens in our overcrowded prisons everyday and then we send those prison wardens to oversee Abu Ghraib & Gitmo) or send 'suspects' in US planes to our friends in the Middle East to be tortured killed and raped, in the name of fighting the new enemy, but thank God WE'RE free...

Anonymous said...

btw dave... you make valid points in a cool way so i don't see this as you (Russel Crowe :) sparring me (on the axis of evil team) but rather as good cop (me) bad cop (you :) okay or vice versa, debating important issues, working towards the same goals.

From my perspective, as the sole superpower in the world our national security approach and imperatives should be different. Might alone does not make right, right always makes might. Naturally you have to back that up sometimes with the credible threat of force, but being number one in that department, we don't have to worry about that.

If our foreign policy objectives and methods were more credible and logical, if we actually followed through on our high moral ground rhetoric with justice for all and malice towards none, we would be number one in every other, not just the military, category. And Americans are blessed with plenty and with the luxury of being able to freely debate and think about these things, i bet an open mind (& as John said above: self-introspection) and a big heart would go a lot lot further to destroying fear & terror in the world than some of our (& not just our..) more covert and reprehensible tried, tested, failed methods.

Mark Ward said...

Everyday,

Right always makes might...love that one....

Curious though, on the subject of Israel, how much of the suffering of the Palestinian people do you feel is due to Israel and how much is due to their own warring factions?

Anonymous said...

The Palestinian people elect HAMAS (arabic acronym for: The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas also means: Energy or Enthusiasm) in Januray 2006, the first internationally monitored legislative elections since 1996.

HAMAS, formed in 1988 after the first Intifada (or 'Uprising' in the occupied territories) goes from a 5-10% popularity rating amongest Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, to a 78% landslide victory in January 2006 elections, with a more than 75% Palestinian voter turnout.

Everyone, including US Secretary of State Rice and her boss the President, agree Palestinians have never participated in such high numbers or in such free and fair elections.

The reason why HAMAS won a HUGE majority of votes and parliamentary seats going from zero to hero, 5% of the people backing them to almost 80% : even in the very modern, laid-back and westernised (cool bars, clubs etc.) cultural centres of the West Bank like Ramallah, not just the giant dustbowl prison camp that (is still) besieged by air land sea and checkpoints at every entry and exit, that is the 25 mile by 4 mile tiny and overpopulated Gaza strip -- so, the reason why HAMAS won elections is two-fold : the embarassing corruption levels of the European and US-backed FATAH leadership, that Yasser Arafat used to head and now Mahmoud Abbas the new Whitehouse darling.

Palestinians were sick of millions of dollars of mainly European aid going into private leadership bank accounts and travel expenses rather than improving their 60 year plight: not only have things NOT gotten better for the since Oslo (1993,) but they can not possibly get any worse, with daily assassinations, the concrete Berlin wall quaintly dubbed the "fence," complete restriction of movement ANYWHERE, a plummeting economy and political situation.

HAMAS had an 18 year record of clean, uncorrupt people-helping politics (i'm not going to go into the suicide bombings issue, because THAT's the terrorsim of someone who doesn't have a Cobra helicopter gunship or F-16 to incinerate civilians on their streets in their houses, or in a more civilised US military and media friendly fashion..)

So, they get voted into power -- the West (aka the US closely followed by the EU sheep) try everything, i mean everything under the sun to screw Hamas, collective punishment, withdrawal of millions of dollars that used to pour into Fatah leadership accounts to pay the salaries of Palestinian doctors teachers hospital workers, they effectively starve and siege the country for 9 months (since January 2006) to complete 'international community' silence. Hoping (for Israel's sake) that the Palestinians will ditch Hamas and re-embrace FATAH. That doesn't happen, it can't get any worse for the Palestinians but they don't have complete amnesia either.

So, to Israel's and the US's nightmare scenario, Saudi Arabia gets the two sides together in Mecca three months ago and makes them kiss and hug and create a united front. Which they do, until Fatah under 100% US-backed and favoured Palestinian leadership (Dr Rice was just on TV stressing the fact) goes AWOL and starts new violence in Gaza.

Hamas's reply, we're not taking this shit anymore, Israel and the US tell Fatah stir new shit and that's exactly what happens. One million Israelis come out on the streets of Tel Aviv to tell their PM (Ehud Olmert) to leave his job, because he's completely and utterly incompetent, sending Israelis to their deaths in unecessary wars and FATAH saves his ass and the day by suddenly breaking the agreement with Hamas, changing the subject in the Israeli media from rock-bottom popularity of the Prime Minister and Defense Minister of Israel to: possible 'new' Palestinian civil war. For the first time by the way, there is no 'Sunni'-'Shia' cool way in to civil war, as there is to exploit in Iraq, or other Arab countries. Palestinians are either all Sunni Muslims or Christians (a helluva lot more Christians lived there before the Israeli occupation btw.)

Two days ago, Hamas takes over Gaza and tells Fatah to back off. The saga is ongoing, gleefully broadcasting muslims killing eachother (for the FIRST time, meaning Palestinian-Palestinian inter-violence and only since Hamas came to power) and gratefully distracting world attention from Israelis killing Palestinians daily or Americans killing Iraqis in another failed military occupation.

Anonymous said...

I think your turban is on a wee bit too tight there, pal.

Anonymous said...

don't wear a turban, don't wear a veil, and i'm not brown... but that's not what you meant by that little remark, right? i'm guessing you wear snakeskins & spurs pal, like the family in texas.

Mark Ward said...

Everyday,

Everything you say is true and of course I know this because I know that you are very well researched and are actually in the region. But....

What about Hamas, Iran, and several other folks saying that all Jews should be exterminated? To me, that smacks of 1930s Europe and we all know how that turned out. I think there is a concerted effort by many people in the world to quite literally destroy the Jewish culture and most of it is largely simple bigotry based on feverish fanaticism. The Palestinian people are being lied to by people who would just as soon kill them as kill an Israeli.

I find it interesting that the conservatives are suddenly very Pro Jewish. Why? In the 1960s, if you were a Jew and you lived in the South....well...best git yourself a rope and get in a line behind the black guy. Now? Oh, we're best pals and we loves the Jewish people. Evangelicals fall all over themselves to support Israel. Why?

And liberals? Suddenly they hate Israel and loathe the fact that they are simply trying to survive. None of it makes any sense to me.

I do know this, though. While many people may squawk loud and hard about God...in the end, most of the violence in the region is about money. Period. And the US is involved there, not because of a "holy" fight but because of money.

Everyone is.

Anonymous said...

Mark thank you & following the money is wise & true.

Major us media myth: NOBODY in the region, no politician, no leader of any islamic movement, no oridinary man or woman on the street says or for a second believes that all jews should be exterminated, because that is inexcusable, unforgivable and suicidal (religiously, where the three books talk about killing a believer in God and its everlasting punishment, politically & socially as well)and in the name of this major myth, arabs are being exterminated, daily, which is okay -- because a. they're arabs, b./ they're terrorists (see a) and c./ they hate jews.

What Palestinians (& 99% of the islamic world in fact, spanning from indonesia to africa, that's almost 2 billion people) are saying, is that Israelis (i won't say Jews although that's the whole POINT of Israel, bringing jews home -- to a home that was shared and populated by someone else by the way before being ethically cleansed -- from all over the world, the reason i won't say Jews is, many jews are and all jews should be proud of being jewish, but MOST jews in israel ( according to the rabbinical authorities there,) don't actually believe in or practise their religion, they eat pigs, don't pray, ignore all of the talmud rituals associated with their faith etc.) so Arabs say these (mainly secular -- i.e. more Israeli than Jewish) Jews should stop killing them, stop occupying them, return their rights to them (according to more than a dozen UN & Security council resolutions, all ignored, funny how we pick & choose the Security Council Resolutions we like to enforce..) and allow them to live in peace with their JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN neighbours, the way they did for centuries across the Arab World and in Palestine (call it Israel, call it Canaan, call it what you like,) it belongs to Palestinian Muslims Christians AND Jews, God doesn't want apartheid -- especially amongst the believers and those who pray to and sincerely submit their will to Him --i know many people will disagree with this, and say YES He does, and Yes God has a favoured nation, who can kill and pillage at will because He favours them, let's all wait till we die and see what He really thinks...

The majority of ultra-orthodox jews by the way, subscribe to exactly the same thinking and belief that HAMAS does, i interviewed many of them over time, many orthodox jews living in the United States will not recognise or even travel to Israel because they too believe that Israel in its present form should not exist. Meaning and ONLY meaning: the peaceful dismantlement of the state of the Israel, the exact same way the apartheid state of South Africa came to a peaceful end, and in its place, a beautiful and truly democratic country (not an ethnocratic country) for all believers to live in and enjoy.

How can anyone live under an occupation and not resist it? Ehud Barak, Israel's NEW Defense Minister and possible next Prime Minister, said on Israel TV a few years ago when he was Prime Minister, that if he was a Palestinian living in the West Bank or Gaza, he too would be a Terrorist, meaning he too would resist his government's occupation. Certainly no American would or could live that way.

I leave you with this thought : 'I am not at all concerned about that, that the Lord is on our side in this great struggle, for I know that the Lord is always on the side of right; but it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation may be on the Lord's side.'

Mark Ward said...

Hey, who said that? It's great, I feel that way about our own country.

Anonymous said...

honest abe again, i think i quoted him earlier, a very poor american from a very small town of little formal education, who educated himself by reading throughout his life and non-stop exchanging ideas, who became one of america's giants, refusing to be bought by any interest group on his way to the top, speaking truth to power including himself and abolishing slavery a hundred years before LBJ took another swipe at it, all of which probably got Lincoln killed. i doubt we'll see another intelligent humble and principled president in the new race to rule the world.