I am still waiting for someone in the Minnesota State Government to accept repsonsibility for the 35W bridge collapse. Carol Mornau still has her job and everyone up there is saying that they had no way of knowing what would happen.
Hmm....this all sounds familiar somehow.
Oh, and it's all the fault of the stinkin' liberals who wanted light rail.
Hmm....this all sounds familiar somehow.
24 comments:
Did you honestly expect anyone from the government to admit they are wrong? Dude, you can't be that naive....
Ah, Mark, remember what age we live in now....very funny considering it's conservatives now....but there is no need to take individual responsibilty now. Our standards are much lower.
Mark, Mark, Mark-don't you know that when Democrats make mistakes they are mistakes but when Republicans make mistakes they are unfortunate outcomes that are a direct result of absolutely nothing to do with their actions at all?
Tsk, Tsk, I thought you knew better.
Well it isn't a zero sum game seeing as we don't have unlimited sums of money to dedicate to transportation.
If you support or have supported light rail it certainly isn't your "fault" but at the same time quit bitching about a lack of money for roads and bridges.
The other posters are right though - if you are waiting for someone to step forward you'll be waiting a long time.
Will it make you feel better if Molnau falls on her sword and takes the blame? Or from whom exactly were you hoping to get an admission of guilt?
** Pawlenty because of his stance of the gas tax?
** Legislators who loaded the transportation bonding bill with money for convention centers and crime labs?
** Every legislator, especially those on the Transportation committee, who have admitted they were unaware of the changing (lower) targets of MnDOT with respect to what "acceptable" was?
** MnDOT for relying on commonly accepted engineering principles as sufficient?
** Every inspector who ended his/her "the bridge should be fixed" report with "or, if not replaced, inspected/redecked"?
** Minnesota motorists who raised holy hell, even to the degree of throwing stuff at bridge inspectors, any time a lane was closed so that inspections could be done?
Here's a thought...how about all of you people who are so bitter and angry spend less time sniping at people and making caustic, sarcastic comments that don't actually contribute to a productive discourse and instead spend some time admitting all of the ways that you failed, both before and after the bridge collapse.
Well, actually, PL you're right. It is our fault for electing people who I thought were man enough to admit when they were wrong. People who were competent and took responsibility for their actions, regardless of any of the reason you have listed above.
I find Molnau and others like her to be sickeningly cavalier about the colossal fuck up that went on on her watch.
We didn't elect Molnau as Transportation Commish, but we did elect Pawlenty, who has on numerous occasions gone on record as saying that we all - himself included - clearly need to reassess our understanding of what constitutes "safe" and "acceptable". What Pawlenty hasn't admitted to is the fact that, in hindsight, it sure seems like a mistake to have somebody like Molnau serve as Transp Commish having no (to my knowledge) understanding of engineering concepts, making her wholly dependent on what turned out to be bogus advice.
Perhaps through some incredibly loose interpretation of what you posted that's the point you were trying to make. If so, I agree. I suspect that's not what you were saying, though.
This next bit will be off-topic, but it's mildly connected, and I'm a little bored at work today....
I don't recall what triggered my memory - perhaps it was the gaggle of protesters near where I work that were hanging out at 1pm waiting for GWB to drive by (over 4 hours later). But whatever it was, something caused me to recall what was probably the greatest discussion in a college class I ever had. We were discussing the poem "The Wild Swans at Coole" by WB Yeats. An innocuous enough poem on the surface, but it led to what I consider to be the most insightful discussion of which I've ever had the pleasure of being a part. (The fact that people actually made intelligent arguments instead of making petty accusations probably helps make the memory of the discussion more pleasant.)
Anyway, the gist of the discussion was this - that there is an innate human need for there to be an explanation. A reason. A "why". (None of us in the class were Psych majors, so although there's probably a term for that need, we didn't know it.) That need manifests itself in some very profound ways, up to and including what most people would call "faith". We also argued that the need manifests itself in the form of conspiracy theories...for some, the need is so strong that explanations for Pearl Harbor, JFK, and 9/11 that don't involve a force greater than them simply will never satisfy that need, even when presented with evidence that contradicts what they believe to be true.
I see a bit of that need in the reaction of a lot of people to the bridge collapse. Amy K has been the poster child for that ever since she uttered the now famous "Bridges just shouldn't fall down." (or however she phrased it) I suspect Amy K, and many who post on this blog, will never be satisfied with an explanation that doesn't involve one or more people having made monumental mistakes. They'll be comforted only by an explanation that involves such culpability and not by an explanation that indicates that a bridge just might fall down despite what everyone thought at the time was their best effort and intention.
For some, crazed gunmen and a convergence of random events is too tragic and too insignificant, I suppose.
PL, that is just so good, I’m going to clip a piece of it out for future plagiarism.
It could be profound. It could be BS. It could be profound BS. Regardless, I guess the discussion resonated with me because it provided a context for a great many perspectives that just didn't make sense to me. Once armed with a little better understanding of people around me I was well on my way to becoming the wonderful human being that I am today...
Protesters, I have always believed, are wasting their time. Imagine what would happen if each of them picked an issue in their communitt and donated their time to it, rather than spending time yelling at the president's motorcade.
Or better yet became a teacher and affected a generation :)
As far as your discussion of why, just to be clear, I know why the bridge fell. I want someone to stand up and say, "Hey, it was my responsibility and I dropped the ball." I don't "blame" Pawlenty, per se, but some of his actions led to this tragic event. I'd like to figure out where it went wrong so we can do better as well.
I also don't an explanation for some of your conspiracies. It's obvious why JFK was killed and I know who did it. This isn't based on belief, it's based on facts. I know why 9-11 happened as well, equally as obvious.
When I talk to people about the JFK assassination, for example, and why he was killed it’s really no big deal. Throughout human history kings are killed by plots…it’s not really anything new or like some big revelation. Coup d’etats happen all the time on our planet and as long as men hunger for wealth and power…well…when a leader is killed and someone says it’s a conspiracy, I will shrug and say,
“Yeah. And…..?….so what? Happens all the time.”
Your response put a big smile on my face. Thanks.
Why? Other than the fact that I can't seem to put a post up without a zillion typos...
The typos are funny, but I don't really pay attention to things like that in this sort of forum. No, your posting made me smile because, intentionally or otherwise, it very clearly illustrated my point. More clearly than I could ever have hoped to express it.
Re: Pawlenty - I don't see what good Pawlenty standing in front of everybody and claiming "my bad" would do. In effect he's already done that by admitting the need to revisit the gas tax issue. It may not be true for you, but I think most people with beliefs similar to yours want him to take the blame due to some perverse pleasure they get out of seeing a conservative take a fall. There are enough conservative criminals and jackasses out there for you to torture - we really shouldn't need to try to build them up where they don't exist.
"I'd like to figure out where it went wrong so we can do better as well."
Did you have the same reaction toward the local politicians in New Orleans during Katrina or did you bash republicans then too?
SW, I think the situations are completely different. If Jack Kennedy came back from the dead and made the same mistakes that Bush did during Katrina, I would be ripping him as well. The bridge was a more state centered problem, not federal as with Katrina,
Do I think that Nagin and the governor should shoulder blame? Yes, but the scope of the disaster was so far beyond them that they needed Bush. And he completely let them down, both through his own actions and the cronies he appointed to run disaster managament. I also think that by re-directing focus towards the local authorities, my original point is proven that no one wants to take responsibility for screwing up anymore.
PL, I think I get it now. Correct me if I'm wrong but am I under the impression that you think that my interpretation of what happened on Nov 22, 1963 is that of faith and not fact?
If anything, your post illustrated to me that the people that believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone are fullfilling, in your words, "an innate human need for there to be an explanation. A reason. A 'why'."
It's that simple explanation that ...what was it again...?
"when presented with evidence that contradicts what they believe to be true" they refuse to see it. They need to have the comfort that our country just isn't capable of something like that so...it was the evil Communist Oswald that did it!
The same holds true for 9-11. There are so many questions about what happened that day that have not been satisfactorily answered by the people we have elected. I hope you realize that in every other country, except the US, people think conspiracy first, lone nut second. They think that, and with good reason, we are incredibly naive to believe that Jack, Martin, and Bobby were all "killed by lone nuts-end of discussion and anything else is looney."
What's looney is not asking "why", sitting back and being satisfied with answers that don't hold up under scrutiny.
I'm sorry to be the one to inform you of this, PL, but we are just like all the rest of the countries in the world. There have been coup d'etats here just like there have been in backwards bananna republics. It's happened througout human history-it's as old as Caesar, probably older--and I find it stunning, since I know you are very intelligent, that you can't see this.
I appreciate the history lesson, Markadelphia, but again your presumptions are inaccurate. I wasn't speaking to the accuracy/inaccuracy of, for example, the Oswald lone gunman theory. I was merely speaking to your contention that you know what happened. It's a classic illustration of the point I so poorly tried to make.
I suspect that if somebody invented a 100% foolproof way to extract "memory" from DNA, and then used Oswald's DNA to show his recollection of how he acted entirely of his own volition on that fateful day, you'd still find a way to discount that idea. He had been brainwashed, his memory had been tampered with, etc. Right? That's the point I was trying to make. For some, apparently including you, there will always be a way that the "official" story is wrong. I think that simply stems from the fact that there is literally no limit to the need for the existence of, and to be a part of, something larger than yourself.
Understand, I'm not being critical of that. On the flip side of the coin, there is literally no end to my skepticism re: "god". Any number of "miracles" could occur right in front of me and I'd still discredit or disprove, even if only to myself, what happened.
Your contention that people accept the "official" story because it is easier has some merit, but I believe it's extraneous to the point I so poorly made.
My point is proven as well. You are on this blog ripping Carol M for "saying they had no way of knowing what would happen" and you are focusing on preventative measures that could have been taken with regards to the 35W bridge.
I read your entry about Katrina you put up some time back and your focus was not at all on prevention, it was on the response (or the lack thereof).
The bottom line is that the city officials knew their levees couldn't handle a large hurricane, the local officials did not follow their own hurricane procedures and they used city money for all kinds of other things in that city besides levees. There wouldn't have had to be any need for a response if the local democratic officials had followed their own procedures.
You can "say" that you would rip into anyone but I pay attention to what people actually do, not what they say they do. When you ripped on conservatives over Katrina, you focused on the "response". Now you shift your focus to "prevention" because that allows you to rip conservatives in this situation.
Bang! Pow! Smack! Duck Mark, duck! You're getting beat on!
Do I know for certain what happened? No, but I have enough information available to me to satisfy myself, for now, as to what did happen.
As far as future evidence coming out, most of it is from the several gunmen theory and not the single one. There are bits and pieces here and there, however, like the Tom Hanks-Vincent Bugliosi HBO series, and I take it all in. But at the end of the day I still have too many questions and not enough answers.
SW, I'll go you one better. I bet that city officials used city money for their own purposes because that city is as corrupt as the day is long. And perhaps the state money as well. But that doesn't take anything away from the colossal errors President Bush made and the incredible insensitivity he showed for the situation.
Conservatives have done an ingenious job of dodging responsibility in the last six years. When someone like myself is critical of their actions, it's politically motivated so immediately discounted, which is basically what you are doing. Thus, people can get away with pretty much anything they want nowadays. Worst attack on our soil in history? Can't blame Bush because I'm biased so he's not responsible. Iraq? Same thing. Katrina? Same thing. And on and on and on...
Do you know what the worst part about it is? When the Democrats get back into the White House, they will do the same thing.
I'm not debating the massive f-up that was the hurricane response in New Orleans and I never said Bush was not at fault.
I'm pointing out the vast difference in your reaction to them.
One consistent thing is that you consistently use tragedy to further your own politics.
And conservatives have gotten very good at using accusations of using politics as a way to dodge repsonsibility.
If Bush, Cheney, Pawlenty, Molnau..whoever would stand up and say, "The Buck Stops Here," I would respect them immensly. Any criticism directed toward them after that would be politics and not supported by myself.
So, honestly, you're flat out wrong. Harry Reid is quite possibly the worst Senate leader we have ever seen. His spinelessness is directly responsible for the deaths of US servicemen in Iraq (along with Bush and Cheney of course).
LBJ was personally responsible for the deaths of friends of my parents in Vietnam. He was a buffoon and behaved much in the same way Bush did. I could really care less about the civil rights laws he passed...his incompetence and flat out deceit lead to the deaths of thousands.
I consistently point out incompetence that leads to tragedy. I don't care what party a person belongs to--it's their actions, or inaction this case, that I criticize.
Mark, it seems it's the kind of people like these above who cannot hold their elected politicians accountable! We must demand that they be accountable and apologize if needed. Who is Pawlenty or milnau or any of them but ordinary people pretending to service the public. Keep up your demands.
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