Well, it seems the Right is all bunged up again up the Pledge of Allegiance. Apparently those wacky judges are up to it again. They are letting the devil into our schools! How? A recent Ninth US District Appeals Court ruling that reciting the pledge in schools is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion.
A recent article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune focused on what students thought about saying the pledge. As you can imagine, there were a variety of answers but this one was my favorite.
"This was nation was founded on the belief and trust in God, and if we throw out 'under God', we might as well throw out all the other moral laws this nation was founded on." (Ryan Douvier, 16, Melrose, MN.)
Gee, I wonder what side of the aisle he and his parents are on? This quote is pretty much what everyone else on the right is saying. Think of it. Gasp! Horror! Oh, the humanity! We change the pledge the way it used to be before 1954 and...oh lordy...lordy...they's gonna be chaos in the street. People will be fornicating in public and saying the word "gay" at the dinner table. Yeah, if we change the pledge we might as well just open up all the jails and let the criminals run free. After all, that is what these liberals really want, isn't it?
Let's start with a fact. Are you listening, Mr and Mrs Conservative America? That's right, a fact. I know it's tough to look at these pesky things because they generally point out how totally fucked and hypocritical your point of view is but here it is: The phrase "Under God" was added into the Pledge of Allegiance by President Eisenhower in 1954. Before that time, no one said it. Hence, there wasn't any debate about saying the fucking pledge in the first place.
I also think that before that time most people were more comfortable with their Christianity. These days it seems that the evangelicals don't feel comfortable at all with themselves. They need to tell the world of their glorious faith. They want...sorry, require....the rest of the country to feel that way. Have you ever noticed that many fundamentalists don't even go to church? Odd as this may seem, most of my friends were are evangelicals can't find a church that suits them. Maybe it's because they are so far off from Christ's original message that they can't see the forest for the trees..
Just so we are all clear on this point: our founding fathers didn't have it in the original Pledge and, as a matter of fact, if you knew anything about history (which you don't because that would involve doing something "liberal" called "reading a book" and "learning."), the people that founded this country were trying to ESCAPE RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!!! They wanted any reference to God as far out of government as possible. Stop trying to rewrite history and save that for 50 years from now when you can explain to future generations why our country took a vacation from intelligence from 2000-2008.
When I said the pledge in school (1973-1985), we never said "under God." And you know what? Somehow..someway (I know this is sooooo tough to understand, conservatives) I still felt patriotic. Yep. That's right. I can love America and keep my religion to myself. I don't need God to interfere with my patriotism. In my mind, the two things have NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH EACH OTHER! Can we please stop with all the founding fathers bullshit and just regain our sanity here, folks?
I have always thought that out of the mouths of babes comes pearls of wisdom and I will leave you all with this final quote from the same article.
"I believe 'under God' should be changed to a second of silence when everyone can think about what they believe in. Some people, Americans or people who come from other countries, don't believe in God. Also, maybe more schools would use it."
"A lot of little kids don't know what liberty and and justice mean. I think it should be changed to freedom and fairness. As a country, I think we should try harder to achieve these goals. "
I believe the Pledge of Allegiance is a tradition and it shouldn't be changed too much. It needs be more true to our changing country as well." (Luke Knoska,12, Wyoming, MN)
15 comments:
I would take this more seriously, but you've raised the bar of inanity so high on this one that I can't resist.
I think the factor being completely overlooked on this issue is the impact to the millions of law enforcement officials who will be thrown out of work should we remove 'Under God' or should kids completely stop saying the Pledge altogether. Let's be honest....the skillset required to hold a gun to somebody's head and force them to say 'Under God' isn't readily transfered to another position. Maybe with a little training, though, they could relieve some of the hard working men and women who have been working tirelessly to force kids today to crank out babies at the ripe old age of 13.
I'm supposed to take the advice of somebody who ponders the political leanings of a 16 y.o. kid in Melrose, MN and "get back to reality"? Have you and your loony political ilk sunk so low as to lump in people who have nothing more grandiose to worry about than the insidious growing meth problem and the price of soybeans and turkeys with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson?
Good god, man.
So it’s the right that is all bunged up? Wow – news to me. Which right winger brought the original lawsuit up in the first place? It’s been OK since 1954 but all of a sudden some son of an atheist may be offended if he/she has to say it. Just when the left thinks they have GWB on the ropes they pull this stuff out….undoing the pledge of allegiance ranks right up there with the price of gas and terrorism? The 9th circuit court of appeals? Is that the court in San Francisco that is the most overturned court in the nation?
Of course, the left had to get a JUDGE to do this, lord knows it’s the only way they can get their agenda passed these days….gay marriage….affirmative action…..this pledge stuff…..all of it. We all saw what the people thought about Gay Marriage last election. A few years ago there was a proposal on the ballot in Michigan for affirmative action. It was shot down by the voters so what did Jesse Jackson do? Traveled to Michigan and tried to get 1 judge to overturn the will of the people. Power to the people my ass. Try putting this on the ballot in 2006 and see how it does.
My mom was a school teacher and my dad was a factory UAW John Deere employee for 37 years. Guess which way they voted?
Facts? In the last discussion below about Harriet Miers you dismissed several facts as nothing more than tripe from hate radio. Speaking of radio…how is Air America doing these days?
There is nothing wrong with people telling people about their faith and honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever had anybody “throw” their religion onto me. I think most Americans don’t feel the need to change the town symbol of Las Cruces, New Mexico or the county symbol in Los Angeles simply because there is a teeny tiny little cross in it. The constitution says freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. It is kind of funny but I keep forgetting, you guys are the "nice" guys, the "open minded" party, and the party that accepts all...what a laugh.
Show me in the constitution where any atheist has the right to not be offended?
When GWB or any government official mentions God, is that an endorsement of their religion or just an acknowledgement of their religion? There is a difference.
Why is hypocrisy the only thing that really inflames the left?
Even though you and I typically occupy the same side of the fence on social issues.....condescension accomplishes nothing in these conversations. Even if someone IS a paste-eating, ditto-headed walking advertisement for eugenics, you’re only going to widen the divide between them and yourself by saying shit like “reading” and “learning” is somehow only liberal. I actually see the underlying point you’re trying to make, but nobody who doesn’t already agree will, because you’ve buried it in unnecessary vitriol. When you’re in the minority already you can’t afford to make instant enemies of people who might otherwise listen to what you have to say. Condescending people usually have self esteem issues and they use their condescending attitude to project their insecurities onto everyone else.
I don’t want to implement fairness. Last time that was tried we got the Soviet Union. Lord knows that if someone has more than someone else they must have stepped on 10 people in order to get it right?
Reciting the pledge of allegiance in school is a publicly proclaimed loyalty oath. Kids are essentially forced to go along because peer pressure is often the strongest dynamic in their lives.
Kids that are different -- for example, kids that decline to recite the loyalty oath -- are teased, harassed or beaten.
Many kids don't even understand the pledge (you can see this in their cute mispronunciations -- "and to the public for witch's stands"). If you don't know what you're promising, what is the point of the pledge? Other than brainwashing?
When a loyalty oath is enforced by a mob, it has no real meaning. You recite it out of self defense. And, ultimately, what real effect does such a pledge have? A person without ethics and morals will readily recite any pledge you want them to in order to further their own interests. Blindly repeating a pledge means nothing.
What really matters is a person's dedication to forwarding the welfare of the people of the United States. I'm sure executives at American corporations that are shipping thousands of American jobs to China and India, will gladly recite the pledge at the drop of a hat. But they are destroying the fabric of American society by making it harder for American citizens to make a decent living.
And it's not just atheists who are against the pledge. My mother was a Jehovah's Witness when I was a kid. The Witnesses were very much against the pledge, whether it included "under god" or not. They believed that God was the higher power, and that good Christians should never pledge their allegiance to any temporal power, as Christ admonished them.
Many other religions hold the same belief. But as we've seen, the Witnesses are singled out for derision -- and many of them would say -- persecution for their religious beliefs.
But if you're going to have a pledge, you should damn well leave God out of it.
When religions hitch their wagons up to government (or vice versa), the result is inevitably tragedy. Just look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Soviet Union, France's St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of Protestants, etc. And, it looks increasingly likely, Iraq will be a clone of Iran -- with suicide bombers.
In this country a certain branch of conservative evangelical Christianity has hitched their wagon to the Republican party. They have supported the Bush administration's destructive foreign policy, economic and ecological initiatives in exchange for enactment of their repressive social agenda.
Like all such bargains made in hell, this one has already resulted in tragedies in the war in Iraq, the drastic increase in global terrorism and the Katrina catastophe.
Religion an government should never mix because religion grants the authority of God -- the power of infallibility -- to a temporal power. The core of religion is unquestioning faith.
And if there is anything that must be questioned, it is the actions and intentions of leaders in government.
PL, I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I am not taking the advice of a 16 year old. I used him as an example of how people on the right think that in order to be moral you must believe in the Christian God.
Crab, we have been without 'under God' longer than we have been with it. Our society has changed. Everthing blk said in the previous comment applys here. You yourself have said that our country was founded on the principle of protecting religon from government and now we are protecting government from religion.
As far as gay marriage goes, my interpretation of the law states that all men and women are created equal and thus have equal rights. So what's the problem here? Answer me this, once and for all, why do people care if gay people get married? What's wrong with gay people and why can't the get married?
Your view on the left is so far out of date it's hilarious. Critisize them for having no voice, no central theme, being weak or perceived as weak on defense, on going overboard on the PC thing but do you honestly think that they are running anything right now? Do you think that the real threat to our country comes from people who simply don't want to take the pledge?
Prove to me I am wrong about the right by picking up a book and reading about our founding fathers. I was purposely being derisive about this because when I offer facts about history invariably I will get the tired, old comment about how all writers are liberal and the education system is a liberal indoctrination program. In other words, it's the fingers in the ears and repeating over and over again, "I'm not listening...I'm not listening."
I listen plenty to the right's point view. It is filled with intolerance, fear, anger, paranoia, and lacks humanity. I have plenty to complain about on the left as well but, for the most part, they seem more human to me.
People on the right are constantly potraying themselves as victims of villains that just aren't there. They don't exist! You guys run everything now. Can't you just enjoy it? Can't you have fun?
Or are you just going to continue to lamabast anyone saying things that don't fit with the propaganda that is currently being spewed out of Washington? I am well aware of the PC bullshit that some from the left. Are you aware of the garbage that comes from the right?
You're right....you are not understanding what I meant. I simply found it ludicrous that you would associate the musings of a 16 year old kid from the farm on the topic of the PoA with some sort of political agenda, real or manufactured in your head. The conglomeration of ideas, both in your posting and blk's, and the subsequent arrival at a conclusion "grounded" in that mishmash was disturbing to me.
If blk is right, then blindly repeating a pledge means nothing, so we should just be able to drop the issue and focus on actual problems facing this country today.
Such as Ayatollah Bush's apparent desire to run this country into the ground. Like blk, I think fondly back to 1999 when there wasn't any global terror, war, outsourcing of jobs, or natural disasters. Of course, to do that, like all conservatives I conveniently ignore facts such as the mass exodus of automobile, clothing, electronics, and toy mfg. jobs during the 70s. I ignore the beginning of the IT exodus that began in the 90s with GE, IBM, and Motorla. I ignore the beginning of the exodus of BPO positions during that same era, a category of job now rapidly leaving this country. I ingore the rise of Islamofascist terror that plagued our nation as recently as days before Satan Bush took office. I know in my heart (because I ignore facts, being a conservative and all) that I should be paid 100K to write code that a monkey from the Amazon rain forest could write simply because I am an American, dammit!
But now that I think about it more, maybe being a progressive has its perks, too. That's it...I'm redefining myself. From this point forward I'm a neo-conservative-progressive. Just call me NeoConProg, for short.
Crabby, you Tsar Bush bullies and your hateful rhetoric don't faze me. As a NeoConProg American, I don't have to listen to your offensive comments or your facts. I know I'm entitled to a high paying job, a plasma tv, a gay spouse, purple shoes, and an SUV, regardless of consideration of global economy or our corporations being outpriced by foreign competitors. If you can't make that happen then you are just out to ruin our country with your greed.
I'm so upset I'm gonna get in my Explorer and drive to Caribou for a Double Mocha Latte and calm down.
Hi Bud,
I agree you can take out the "Under God" phrase. You are right that it was added in the fifty's for Cold War reasons. But, you might need to review a few other historical facts... The Pledge of Allegiance was written and first published in 1892. I think most of our founders were dead by then. It has also undergone a few subtle changes other than adding "under God". This link lists the changes...
www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html
I'm pretty sure that every school in the U.S. has used the 1954 version since it was adopted so you probably did say "under God" when you were in school.
Also, the people who originally came to America came here because of religious persecution not "prosecution". (I think that's more correct.)
These same wonderful people, who were persecuted, came here...burned witches, killed heathen "indians", etc. So religious freedom for them...not so much for others.
Also, The founding fathers...they were men ahead of their time. Scientist, scholars and free thinkers but...they also slid the word "God" into a few historical documents. Reveiw the Declaration of Independence for starters. And you should review what's written on your cash. Christianity was still a big part of their lives. The founders also didn't allow women to vote and blacks weren't people. At least not whole people. So the framers intent? No "STATE" religion. Like in England. Not no religion in the states or probably Government for that matter.
Sixteen year olds. Come on, do you know how many stupid things you said when you were sixteen? Give the kids a break. If they quoted adults then...bust them up. ;-)
And, last...for now. I believe that 85% of the people in this country say they are Christian. (not me but lots' of other people)
My first response to you so I hope I did this correctly.
Also, liked your blog on the newest supreme court nominee. Note: prior to her nomination both Dems and Repubs were suggesting that the President should nominate someone outside the judiciary. They got what they wanted and now look at the hulabaloo.
Quick and dirty. Gotta go.
Boy, I'm sure glad you let me in on this enlightened conversation. I need a good laugh once in a while. I have a hard time accepting that people really believe the lefty crap the media puts out. George Bush must be the devil incarnate. He can even control the weather. Gotta go clean my guns now I'm sure the Dems want them clean when they come to pry them from my hands. Too bad the party of JFK got hijacked by the communists.
"Lefty crap the media puts out." Which media is that, waterboy? Would that be the most popular news station, Fox News? Or would it be the most popular broadcaster, Rush Limbaugh? Or how about Laura Ingram or Ann Coulter? Or the Chicago Tribune?
Maybe we could even take a look at the "liberal" radio stations that are pretty much the only thing on in rural America. You know the ones that air Mike Gallagher, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Hugh Hewitt and Michael Medved. That's a pretty liberal bunch if you ask me.
If you ask me the people who are brainwashed are the people that think that the media is liberal. The media has been either asleep or acting like unofficial spokespeople for the government. And that has been going on for quite some time....
This isn’t even an issue that particularly excites me to begin with.
“and now we are protecting government from religion”…I guess I don’t view keeping “under God” in the poa as a religious assault on government. Saying the words "under God" without even mentioning which God you’re talking about isn't an establishment of religion. The President is not the head of said religion, nor is Christianity or any other religion officially supported by the state, by the mere reciting of those words.
So the Pledge of Allegiance makes Jehovah's Witnesses uneasy. If sensitivity is the absolute standard then perhaps we should get rid of sex education. Kids get picked on for being overweight too, we should ban obesity.
There’s nothing wrong with gay people and as you know, I don’t care if 2 gay people want to get married. I think us heterosexuals are doing a fine job of ruining marriage ourselves.
With regards to saying “equal rights” when it comes to gay marriage…comparing the struggle for equal rights to gays isn’t so clear cut. Why? Because there has never been a law declaring what someone does with their sex organs qualifies them as a protected group under the civil rights act and there never will be. There is no support for differences based on behavior.
There are too many vague definitions about who is gay and who isn't. There is no minority status for any group who can declare or not declare their status. If you look at a woman, which is also a protected minority in spite of the fact there are more women than men walking the US, she can't declare herself a man (unless there is a sex change operation) therefore her status is unquestionable....and this unquestionable status that does not require self proclamation is the test for minority status and not behavior. Many say being homosexuality is not a choice. That may be your opinion and the opinion of a lot of researchers, but not the opinion of all. Moreover, with race and sex, science can identify chromosomes and genes which meet absolute scientific proof of one's status. The day science locates a gay gene, then talk to me about it since you will then have hard science rather than social science to back your claim. For that matter, marriage isn't a right in the first place. It is an institution invented, and therefore defined by society at large that confers on qualified individuals certain privileges. Because everyone can't have those privileges doesn't mean we redefine it to cram more people into qualified status.
With regards to what Big Al said, a simple Google search finds these quotes from our founding fathers. Perhaps these quotes, from the men who wrote, debated and ultimately adopted the Bill of Rights, can shed some light on their view of God and religion in general. The source of these quotes is cited…
George Washington
"...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle" – from his farewell address.
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
James Madison….“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)
Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
I can’t believe how much I rule. I found all those quotes in 3 minutes. I think it's safe to say that I may be the most efficient human being on the planet. People have been emailing me because of my writings on here and asking me if I'll be going on a blog writing tour. I haven't decided yet, but I'll definitely be going on a hand kissing tour. To honor myself for this act of supreme benevolence toward my fellow readers here (and to follow the precedence set by Neoconprog, I will hereby not read nor reply to any question posed to me on this blog unless it includes the phrase "To his majesty, the honorable Crabmaster".
I suspect you saying “enjoy it and have fun” means “Don’t bother advancing your agenda. We’ll advance our agenda via the courts cause, like several other issues on our agenda, we sure as hell could never have this issue on a ballot”. Noticed that you give your “interpretation” and when anyone says anything back they are “lambasting” you.
Just as many liberals and secularists can only imagine a religious person being brainwashed, they likewise can only imagine religious extremism, never secular extremism. One can easily be too religious, but never too secular. The ACLU threatened to sue the National Park Service over two little plaques at the Grand Canyon that had Psalms written on them. The fact that 90% of Americans would not consider a lawsuit over something so trivial is proves how effective a secular brainwash can be. Now secularists want to strip “under God” from the pledge. The nation was founded by people who believed in God as my quotes and Alan’s post clearly state.
Part of America remains the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. An ever growing part seems to be the Land of the Easily Offended and the Home of the Hypersensitive. Public schools have Ramadan and Kwanza celebrations nowadays…aren’t those religions?
The argument that anyone can do all the God-talk they want at home or at church is no more convincing to me than the argument that anyone can sing the national anthem at home, so why have people do it at baseball games? Why stop at the pledge?
Real quick,
There should not be any Ranadan or Kwansi celebration at all in schools. There should be no reference to religion at all in schools. I have said this before and I will say it again: Schools need to educate children on the basics and they are having enough trouble with that.
If you want a religious education, that's great. Go to church.
The national anthem...does that have any reference to God in it? I don't believe so in which case I will once again state that being a patriot has nothing to do with believing in God.
I won't respond if you don't acknowledge me the right way.
Markadelphia and His Majesty, the Honorable Crabmaster:
To be accurate, the national anthem does have a reference to god in it.
http://www.flagday.org/Pages/SSB_words.html
Like it or not, faith in god was instrumental in the formation of this nation and has continued to be a bedrock of inspiration for our greatest leaders.
We believe that all men have the right to freedom of thought and expression. We believe that all men are created equal because they are created in the image of God.
From this faith we will not be moved.
Harry S Truman, inaugural address
Jan 20, 1949
Leave the PoA alone. All you little punks get up off your fat, cheesy-poof eatin, video game-playing asses, put your hand over your heart, and recite after me:
"I pledge allegiance...."
I have no problem reciting the pledge. I just don't see why God has to be brought into it.
I'm sorry. I guess I got confused. I thought god was already in it...
Yeah, and it shouldn't be. That's what church is for. Being loyal and patriotic to your country has nothing to do with God.
Government is public and Religion is private
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