It is has been roughly six years since I started this online community of ours and we have, once again, come around to that time of year again that calls for reflection, pause and taking stock in the tapestry that is Notes From The Front. I am speaking of course, of September 11th. Rather than go into to my usual anti-Bush Co tirade, I thought I would turn the magnifying glass on ourselves as a citizens and ask the question:How did WE end up so far off track? I mean, I already know why Bush Co is so far off track and how they have been able to do it but what about us? You and I?
Six years ago our country stood as one. Every American stood together proud and strong, not weak and bickering like we are now. The world, aside from the usual crazies, was markedly pro-American and they had our backs. People loved us and we loved each other. We held each other and cried at the depths of the tragedy on September 11th and we gave each other support. We had a moment where Carpe Diem should have been our battle cry. Instead, we pissed it all away. Today, we are right back to where we were on September 10th-a collection of assholes..lazy, fat, selfish, ignorant, afraid, partisan, psychotic and narrow minded. At times, I have to admit, I include myself in some of these categories and it is for this reason that, over the course of this year, I have done some serious self actualization.
I have spent some time making a concerted effort to figure out how people of the conservative mindset truly think and feel. I had the hope (and still do) that I could maybe build a bridge or two...even mend some fences. Possibly figure a way out of this mess? I also wanted to take the advice of some conservative posters, who write here on a regular basis, and go to a blog where I am in the minority, as they are here....just to see how it feels.
It just so happened that when I wrote a column about the Jim Zumbo deal a while back (click here if you want to re-read it), a blogger by the name of Kevin Baker came to the defense of the gun lobby. He posted some comments here that made me think and, I must admit, altered my view. I came to the realization that, while I will never get off on guns, they are, in fact, a personal liberty just as anything else is in this country and if I am going to be against things like the Patriot Act, then I have to be against gun control. Besides, it's not guns that are the problem anyway. It's Americans that are the problem. And Americans like Kevin, and the others that post on his site, are very responsible gun owners.He wrote on here:
I'm going to disagree with you on a lot of things. This is good, because you learn much more arguing your case with someone who disagrees with you than you do preaching to the choir.
I agree completely. You know that I love all of you but the most interesting discussions are when PL, Crab, Dave, Sarge, the rev, and joe Anonymous get in the mix. I believe with all of my heart and soul that raising the level of debate in this country gets people to think. That's why I think it IS polite to talk about politics. Preaching to the choir is a fucking bore and I would have shut down this site long ago if we didn't have the wonderful ragers we have had here.
So, it was with that spirit I began posting on his blog...the only other blog I post on regularly other than this one. I really felt like if we could come together on the gun thing maybe there could be other things on which we could find common ground. I was buoyed by Kevin's (and others that post there) intelligence, unbiased interpretation of facts and law in regards to the gun issue so I really felt there might be some hope.
But each time the issues of September 11th come up...well...to say I get frustrated would be the understatement of the year. There is, as Kevin himself recently called it, "a profound divide" between the left and the right in this country when it comes to 9-11, Iraq, Islam, terror...the whole deal.
To be honest, it makes me fucking weep.
To truly illustrate what I am talking about, go and read Kevin's post from Sunday, September 02, 2007 entitled Yeah, Hollywood Has Our Back. Click on the comments section and read the ensuing discussion. (Sometimes a click on Refresh is required to get Comments to show up)
A profound divide? It's more like a deep chasm. I am really trying hard to find some merit in what they have said here--and I realize there is some slight variety--but good Lord, their hatred of the left has completely clouded their judgement to the point of insane irrationality. It is THEIR way or....we are all on the side of terrorists. And do you know what the worst part about it is?They are wasting their time on a phantom enemy (the evil liberals) when the real bad guys are still out there. Let's take an abbreviated look at some of the more salient comments made about yours truly..
...add Markadelphia to the list which includes Rall and DePalma. And I'm quite serious about that. The apologist for a terrorist is but a terrorist. and the apologist's apologist is but a REMF-ing terrorist. Markadelphia is as the mud which clings to a soldier's boots, dangerously slowing him in combat. (Jim from Texas)
...you're guaranteed to become someone else's tool. Tool, Markadelphia, You oughta think about that. (geekwithA.45)
Now here is an apt punishment for DePalma and his ilk. Click here (Yosemite Sam)
Mark, et al...actively propagandizing on behalf of your country's enemies is most certainly treasonous. DePalma has made it absolutely clear that that is exactly what he is doing. (Stephen Rider)
The elites in this country will finally go too far and they will then be removed from power by military force. It will happen quickly and will be overwhelmingly supported by the public at large.(Yosemite Sam)
So, I am a terrorist who is being manipulated by the evil left wing cabal? I should be tarred and feathered as a traitor, giving aid and comfort to the enemy? Others who think like me will soon perish as well? Remember the conversation I had with the nephew of a friend of mine who had just gotten back from Iraq? Remember he felt that it was his mission to kill Democrats as they are responsible for all the wrongs in this country? Several of you told me his was an isolated view.
All of you were wrong. I offer as proof the people listed above.
Now, I didn't respond to these people at the time because apparently I made Kevin so angry with what I wrote that he wanted me to take a break for awhile. I have since come back and am happily posting there again but, after a week's reflection, I realized that how I'd like to respond is virtually the same as what I wanted to talk about on this year's anniversary of Notes From The Front. The answer to the question "how did we end up so far off track?" is quite evident when you consider this:
This is the picture (above top) that was put up, in Kevin's comments section, of a man being tarred and feathered in a public square as an example of what should happen to liberals in this country They all laughed about it. Take a look at the picture directly below it.
Who are the bad guys again?
Well, apparently it's me, Brian DePalma, and the rest of the elitist liberals in this country that even slightly question this administration. It's the media who, anytime they are critical of anything conservative, are giving aid and comfort to the enemy. But it's never EVER anything that THEY are doing. THEY are always right or RIGHT.
The level of denial these people are at is stunning. And I submit it is THE main reason why we are so far off track. In a nutshell, this is why we are losing.
And by losing, I mean everything. We are so blinded by ideology that we can't see that our country is quite literally being destroyed. It's not because we don't support the troops, or are making films about GIs raping Iraqi girls. It's because a group of ideological lunatics have taken over our country and have quite effectively preyed upon the emotional psyches of at least 30 million people in this country.
Most of you who post here know me well. Two of you that post here went to Iraq and came back. In that time, did you every feel like I was "mud which clings to a soldier's boots?" The very idea that I, and the millions of others that think like me, are traitors because we don't subscribe to a psychotic and fervently false ideology is completely and utterly offensive.
This ideology is terribly deluded by rage. These folks are so far gone that they can't see that they are becoming their enemy. They are advocating a state that hides the truth. They want a population that receives an education whose sole focus is to portray the United States as the eternal saviour of the free world. They want the radio we listen to, the TV we watch, and the films we go and see to be "approved" by the "Patriot Police" before it is distributed. They will actively seek out and re-frame any thought or expression that does not fall line with their ideology and label it as traitorous. They foment anger by erroneously accusing liberals of doing exactly the same things that they, in fact, do.
What do you call a state like that?
They can't see this and continue to accuse people like me of being a traitor. A traitor because I don't fall in line and salute what I know to be a completely fabricated answer to a sham of a question, "Why do they hate us so much that they attacked us on September 11th?" They didn't attack us because we "love freedom" and they didn't attack us because they want to take over the world. Would everyone here like to know why they attacked us? Go read this:
Why.
These are bin Laden's words and they seem quite clear to me. We have been fucking around in their land for too long and they got sick of it. So they hit us. It ain't rocket science folks. It's pretty plain to me. You dick around in someone else's Holy Land and, being the psychotics that they are, they are going to fight back.Ask yourselves this question, wouldn't we do the same if, say, the Islamic Army came into Pittsburgh and started running the steel industry?
Many conservatives are quite fond of telling me to listen to our enemy. Well, I am listening and it's never been more clear to me that in order to defeat these guys, we need to change. I wonder if Kevin, geek, Jim, Yosemite, Stephen et al are listening? Read the link above again and accept the fact that our foreign and economic policies have helped to create these monsters. Take some fucking responsibility for your country's actions for crying out loud instead of thumping your chest and crying "Hulk is always right, traitorous liberals weaken Hulk." Please stop creating an enemy that doesn't exist in this country -an enemy that you have created out of your anger, insecurity, ignorance, and fear.
People fear what they do no understand. And in today's culture, people only want to take the time to understand what's easy and comfortable for them. They don't want to do the hard work i.e. the change that is necessary to eliminate terror as a tactic. They would rather just accuse people like me of being appeasers, continuing to live in their deluded bliss that all "liberals" think the same way. Do all conservatives think the same way? They are so horribly mistaken that it is sad really and quite depressing.
Imagine what would happen if the folks that posted on Kevin's blog lead with their intellect to learn more about the Muslim world and used their words to expose the psychosis that is Islamic extremism. Imagine if like minded conservatives "swift boated" bin Laden and his ilk rather than remaining trapped in tired ideological rhetoric, continually ripping every "liberal" or "progressive" that comes along-damning them to hell for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Until we can figure out a way to break through this ideological barrier, we are doomed. Doomed to repeat the same mistakes that empire after empire has made throughout time when the only conviction they had was their own vanity in believing that they were always right. God, we are soooo there right now. Now the question becomes how do we get back on track? I've got some ideas but honestly, folks, I don't know if I have any real answers.
Do you?
29 comments:
I would be one of those two soldiers who Mark knows who is home from Iraq. I have served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. To say that Mark is a terrorist's apologist and he is the "mud" that clings to my boots is a flat out lie. It's a lie made by a bunch of people that clearly have never been in combat and have no idea at all what kind of enemy we are dealing with.
I served one tour in Afghanistan and two in Iraq and the whole time I was there Mark made sure that I had enough DVDS, games, comic books, and candy to get me through. He also sent enough for the other folks in my unit. He had his kids write us letters and send us photos of fun things going on in Minnesota. They brought us all up.
Mark, don't listen to people like this. They are idiots and patriotism clearly is the rurthest thing from their mind.
I haven't posted here in awhile. Had some health issues. I went to the blog you linked to and, I'm sorry, did you say these people were Republicans? From where I stand, they sound more like Nazis.
Any real Republican would reject the Bush administration for its reckless spending, largely due to the Iraq War which is most definetly a distraction from where we should be fighting and how we should be doing it.
"Six years ago our country stood as one. Every American stood together proud and strong, not weak and bickering like we are now. The world, aside from the usual crazies, was markedly pro-American and they had our backs. People loved us and we loved each other."
It might have looked like that Mark, but it was an illusion.
Yes, there is a chasm between the Left and the Right, one probably deeper and wider than any division in this country since the Civil War.
Your position is that "we need to change." That if we change, well then, Osama and his philosophical adherents will just leave us alone.
Well, Osama and his adherents think we need to change, too. We need to either convert to his version of Islam, submit to slavery, or die. Those of us on the other side from you believe him when he says that. We believe it when Imams in mosques all over the world repeat it to their followers. It isn't our actions that provoke the Islamists, it's our existence - the fact that our culture seduces their young away from their fundamentalist religion.
I don't think you and I are going to ever agree on this, but I honestly believe that I have a better understanding of human nature than you do. You think that, if we just become more civilized, if we self-flagellate with Brian DePalma and Michael Moore films, well, they'll be happy and leave us alone.
I don't believe that. I believe that what they want is to roll back the clock to the 12th century, and that, by and large, they represent the forces of barbarism in today's modern world.
But I also understand the difference between the civilized and the barbarian. The civilized can drop the veneer of civilization when necessary, and bring to bear the products of civilization in decidedly barbaric (and effective) ways. The barbarians can't even build the products of civilization. They have to scavenge or steal them from the civilized.
And those who cannot drop the veneer of civilization? They are not really civilized. They're the domesticated. (Apologies to Trefor Thomas.)
And Iowa kid? Haven't you ever heard of Godwin's Law?
Yes, I have. That doesn't excuse the fact that your ideas on how to defend this country border on Fascism. I read through your blog. You are dead right on guns and the personal liberties therein. If you truly believe those principles, then you can't advocate state controlled forms of expression.
Remember, it works two ways. Imagine a world in which Hillary Clinton or John Edwards get to dictate what supports the troops and what doesn't. I shudder at the thought..
Kevin, if you say you are listening to bin Laden, then why do you ignore his fatwa from 1998? The link is this post. It spefically says that our actions-not our existence-are the cause of his declaration of war upon us. Do you believe him when he says that or just the other stuff?
My point was not that we should listen to Michael Moore or Brian DePalma. My point was that you are wasting energy on them because they aren't that important. What is important is that we focus on stopping who attacked us on 9-11. We aren't doing that now at all.
"If you truly believe those principles, then you can't advocate state controlled forms of expression."
I'm not advocating "state controlled forms of expression." I'm trying to find the dividing line between dissent and treason.
IMHO, DePalma stepped over the line. He and other Hollywood glitterati are making propaganda films for our enemies.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of said speech.
I haven't seen the film. I probably won't because I don't make a regular habit of seeing people get raped in the movies. It's my understanding that it is a true story, no? Did this actually happen?
If so, I would wager that it was all over the news in the Arab world and already being used as a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, with the truth very much exaggerated. I'd imagine that less people know about it here than over there.
This was a good post. I try to build bridges all the time with my conservative friends but have pretty much given up. They keep accusing me if being a terrorist. Until we can find some way to medicate these people, I have no answers for you mark.
Oh, please. You wouldn't know the truth if he walked up and handed you a business card. You try to build bridges? You lead with Bush is a nazi. Cheney is the devil. Conservatives are dumb as dirt. That's building bridges?
Well, Bush has certainly acted like a Nazi and Dick Cheney is an evil man. I'll give you the dumb as dirt thing though-way out of line.
Yes, Bush has acted like a Nazi. He's built concentration camps and contracted Halliburton to provide industrial-sized gas chambers and coal-fired creamatoria (the better to increase Globular Warmering, you know!) Dick Cheney is an evil man because Nazi Bush is his hand-puppet (when Karl Rove isn't using him.) 9/11 was Bush's Reichstag fire, and... what was his Kristallnacht again? Oh, right: New Orleans, when he (or was it Cheney?) pointed Katrina right at it, and then blew the levies with charges pre-placed by the Army Corps of Engineers.
We've heard it all before. And we're supposed to "build bridges" to that?
Goodness, where to begin…especially with the other Righties doing such a bang-up job of it for me. But since you asked so nicely…
I’m glad there’s a bit of introspection there, but since you invariable return to the same conclusions, I suspect there’s a flaw in you methodology….or you’re inescapably correct. Which could it be?
Have you ever noticed that in the whole world, it seems to be only the United States that actually has that introspection? Do you ever hear the Arab street say that they must do a little bit of soul searching to see why they have such a love of twelfth century life and blowing up their own children? Or the French? Or the Russians?
The right hides the truth? …education and the “patriot police”, come on… If you look at the far left throughout time, and even today, you’ll see that the left has a near monopoly there. Pick your favorite socialist state and the US is not even in the ballpark. Want examples? Who’s that who’s trying to censor radio because they don’t like the message? Who’s that company that refuses to release a DVD on 9/11 because it reflects badly on a past administration? Who is that trying to restrict what you do on your own property? Who is that trying to take away the 4th amendment? Who is it that won’t even allow creationism to be mentioned in the classroom, simply mentioned, along side evolution? Who is it that the refuses to even allow debate on the merits of global warming? Look no further than VHeights example from a few posts ago on education; unable to even find anything positive to say about the US in the classroom. The right simply says; let’s show the good in addition to our faults and are demonized because of it. I could go on all day with examples. All day, baby…
You want to build a bridge… That’s nice. If so, then why do your, and the left’s in general, actions do exactly the opposite? Look at your language and tell me how it builds bridges? Take a look at how Gen. Petraeus has been treated this week… Liberals flat out called the man a liar. The man they voted unanimously to lead the war. Is that building bridges and trying to understand his view? You can just hear the smarmy, condescending attitude of those grilling him. And his answers were nothing but polite. Who’s building bridges and trying to make others understand here?
Now, I wouldn’t characterize you as a terrorist, that’s silly. But, as always, you’re confusing “slightly questioning the administration” with outright propaganda for the enemy and there’s a world of difference. You are however, bordering on what Lenin called, “useful idiots” in that you are, wantonly or not, supporting the enemy through your appeasement. In the history of the world, an aggressor has never, ever stopped simply because the opponent was being nice & understanding. It is an iron clad rule of life and you simply do not see it.
And when filmmakers and the left focus exclusively on the negative, how can you honestly believe that we should believe they “support the troops”? Did those GIs commit that crime? I don’t know the details, but it looks like it. And they’re being punished aren’t they? So why tar and feather the entire military and America in general for the actions of a view? In regards to such deluded thinking, I submit to you the words of Teddy Roosevelt:
"Barbarism has, and can have, no place in a civilized world. It is our duty toward the people living in barbarism to see that they are freed from their chains, and we can free them only by destroying barbarism itself. The missionary, the merchant, and the soldier may each have to play a part in this destruction, and in the consequent uplifting of the people. Exactly as it is the duty of a civilized power scrupulously to respect the rights of all weaker civilized powers and gladly to help those who are struggling toward civilization, so it is its duty to put down savagery and barbarism. As in such a work human instruments must be used, and as human instruments are imperfect, this means that at times there will be injustice; that at times merchant or soldier, or even missionary, may do wrong. Let us instantly condemn and rectify such wrong when it occurs, and if possible punish the wrongdoer. But shame, thrice shame to us, if we are so foolish as to make such occasional wrongdoing an excuse for failing to perform a great and righteous task." --Teddy Roosevelt, 1901
That link from bin Laden is simply one of many speeches. Why focus only on the one? Why not take them as a whole? The War on Terror is not just the war against bin Laden but against the whole Islamofascist ideology. President Bush made it clear to anyone listening before we even went in to Iraq that this was not, not, simply a quest to get the one man responsible for 9/11 but to take down the whole rotten ideology of Islamic terrorism and those that harbor it. If bin Laden turned into a model citizen tomorrow, it would not change one thing because there are a thousand others just like him. Does the US want to spread democracy around the globe? Sure. Did communist leaders want to do the same? You bet. Do Christians want to spread their faith? Of course. Why do you refuse to believe that the Muslim faith is different when their leaders flat out tell you they want to spread their faith throughout the world? The signs are all around you…you sir, simply refuse to listen because you’re convinced we live in a world that if we all just have enough knowledge and understanding, we could all live happily together. That is dangerously foolish. And if you lived on a little island, we could let people be dangerously foolish, but my kids might be at the same café as you when it’s blown up and I won’t take that risk. Mr. Nickolson said it best, “…son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You?”
Then there’s this pesky “knowledge is power” mantra... That’s one of your favorites; it’s just so hippie. One can have knowledge up the ying-yang and do nothing with it or ignore it or simply not reap the benefits of it. You want knowledge that “may” not even exist in the hopes that the enemy will somehow stop due to your understanding. Has your introspection led you to ask the question: What if the knowledge leads me to the conclusion that there simply are evil people in the world who want to impose Sharia Law over me? For goodness sake, your blog wouldn’t even be allowed in that world. Knowing the enemy and understanding the enemy will do nothing to help you unless you actively oppose it. Since you like to use the knowledge is power mantra…let’s apply that to everyone’s favorite example, the Third Reich. Explain what good knowledge and understanding of an aggressor would do you if you were a Jew or a Pole in 1940?
And, oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, I do whole heartily believe the United States IS the savior of the free world. And the people of FORMERLY communist tyrannies will back me up on this. As will the women who can now attend school in Afghanistan. As will the Iraqi’s who can now freely vote. And people all over the world that have been freed from the shackles of oppression. Because, you see, there is indeed a way out of this mess; it’s called victory.
Dave’s quote of the day:
John Abizaid (retired Army general): “The fact the Iraqis want us to go, we want to go, is one that none of us should ever lose sight of. We’re trying to work ourselves out of a job. But we can’t do it in a way that destabilizes the country and allows precisely the worst thing to happen, which is the country becomes an even greater safe haven for extremist groups such as al-Qaida.”
"...trying to work ourselves out of a job." Precisely put. That’s why it’s maddening when people refer to the U.S. as an “imperial power” — when they speak of an “American empire.” What colossal ignorance.
…sorry, but I need to pile on with some additional example of censorship from the left since this just came up today…and Bloom County is the undisputed greatest comic strip of our time…so I thought I must add to my ever growing list…
The link is to a, gasp, Fox News article, detailing how the Washington Post didn’t run it’s syndicated cartoon strip by Berkeley Breathed for a couple of days for fear they would offend Muslims. Funny, but no one ever asks me whether I would be offended by something.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294779,00.html
Working backwards, Kevin talked about the comic strip on his blog. Personally, I could care less what kind of cartoons anyone wants to run. It won't offend me or my religion. The Washington Post would never run, say, a cartoon that depicted the marriage of Jesus and Mary Magdelene either. I agree that people are too worried about offending someone. Who cares?
The Iraqis do want us to go. We aren't. And we won't go because of the strategic interests we have there. I don't see why this is so hard for folks to understand.
I don't know if Iraq and Afghanistan are that much better. Sure, they can freely vote but in the case of Iraq, if you were a Sunni, you were either dead, fled or partioned. Remember what Cheney said in 1994, Dave, he was right! And Afghanistan, the country we have more or less neglected? With the Taliban in control of some of the country again and Al Qaeda operating freely in the border area with Pakistan, I think your point is at fault.
Why focus on the one speech of bin Laden's? Because that's when he declared war on us. We didn't listen then (Clinton) and we aren't listening now (Bush).
Knowledge is power...that means intelligence about the enemy. We don't seem to care now at all about how their culture works. How can we hope to defeat this idealogy when refuse to learn more?
Useful idiots can be applied to the right as well. Look at who Bush appoints to run the governement, not qualified people but people who will be "good Bushies" and blindly follow, never questioning what he does.
I'll have more later--long post Dave!
Oops...typo. I was thinking of the 2nd amendment in that 4th paragraph, but wrote the 4th, inadvertently.
On knowledge...You assume greatly. You assume that because the right differs from your viewpoint that they're flying blind, without knowledge or insight.
Great first post Dave.
Regarding where we were on Sept 10, I will again submit that the reason talk radio and maybe even fox news is so popular is because people don’t really want to continually hear about how terrible we are, how we always screw everything up, how fat, ignorant, and lazy we are. People know that there are many people out there who are fat and lazy, people know that the US has made plenty of mistakes...when you continuously beat that drum you will no doubt feed the angst of those who already agree with you but that drumbeat doesn’t do much to bring people over to your side who don’t already agree with you. I still maintain that when the insults start flying, people will stop listening to anything else you say and just focus on the insult and insult you back. Like Dave said, if you want to build bridges then stop insulting people because nobody cares about your level of frustration. Here’s the real kicker though...I’d even go so far as to say that even when you are right...even if someone is a selfish, uneducated a-hole and you call him/her out on that fact…you still aren’t building any bridges by reminding them of that fact, you are furthering the divide. Aren’t some things just better left unsaid? You have also recently said several times that you "have no tolerance for stupidity"...what does that have to do with building bridges? It is polite to talk politics but I’ve seen first hand how the discussions usually end up…both sides walking away and saying "What an idiot" based solely on the persons politics and nothing more. Shallow.
When Rush Limbaugh has more listeners than NPR, or Tom Clancy sells more books than Noam Chomsky, or Motor Trend gets more subscribers than Mother Jones, liberals want to convince us (or themselves, perhaps) that it’s all because of some catastrophic market failure or a grand corporate conspiracy to dumb down the masses. Maybe it’s just the result of consumer choice. All the opinions that the left favors are readily available to everyone via multiple platforms. But that’s not good enough is it?
"They are wasting their time on a phantom enemy (the evil liberals) when the real bad guys are still out there." Here’s an observation, how many columns have you written that focus on the things Islamofacists do around the world? 98% of your blog entries focus on Bush and/or conservatives. I think you’re doing a bit of projecting here as any reader of this blog can see that your main war is with GWB and conservatives. The fact that you would defend that Depalma film by bringing up "free speech" as you did in that discussion doesn’t change the fact that the film is indeed propoganda for the enemy, as even the films director points out. When someone rips on the military like that, the end result is propoganda for the enemy regardless of the directors or the critics intentions. I’m not saying the guy can’t make this film, I’m tasking people to look at the end result. Propping up the enemies successes (as she did yesterday) may help Hillary Clinton score political points but it does NOTHING to further our cause against terrorism. I would hardly describe Depalmas actions as "questioning our administration". It’s like showing Birth of a Nation in order to start healing the racial divide in this country. We had so many huge setbacks in WWII yet I maintain that not many citizens of this nation would think to make a film depicting us as the bad guys.
When people trumpet the negative things that happen to us in this campaign, they are indirectly helping Al Queda. Nobody is saying that those bad things didn’t happen but do they need to be trumpeted so much? The uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. Regarding Abu Gharab, these are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them. Did that story really deserve 82 STRAIGHT front page stories in the NYT????
Free speech goes both ways. You cannot suggest that Kevin is infringing on Depalmas free speech rights simply because he disagrees with him. (Putting aside the fact that Kevin is not the government.) I don’t care what your intentions are, it’s the results that matter. I suspect Depalma will get off scot free with this film because something like 70% of hollywoods revenues come from overseas and Hollywood knows it.
Recounting Christian violence of the past and constantly pointing out GWB’s corruption doesn't make Islamic extremists go away and when a large majority of what you type is about our screw-ups, it means you aren’t talking about Al Queda very much. I also don’t believe any of us have a whole, complete picture of the circumstances surrounding many of the happenings around the world simply because we scour the internet or watch the nightly news.
I’m not saying Hillary, or anyone else for that matter, can’t say the things she said. I want critics to think about the impact of what they are saying. Regarding those comments left about you by the posters on that blog, just look above to see the references to Nazis and Stupidity by 2 liberal posters on this blog. If you want that to end then rise above it yourselves people, don’t feed the machine. It has already started in the new post you just made...look at the comment left by dick nixon. Feel free to leave as many comments like that as you feel like but don’t come on here afterward and wonder why we are so divided because it is quite obvious.
Just for kicks, note how German authorities found out about the recent planned attack over there. They eavesdropped on a phone call from Pakistan to Germany. This is the exact equivalent of the NSA program that is ritually described over here as "domestic spying" and “unconstitutional”. Further, it was the NSA program that brought the German terrorists to light: The arrests were the culmination of an investigation that began a year ago, when U.S. officials alerted German authorities to e-mails intercepted from Pakistan.
I’m not on here to debate the “right/wrong” of what I typed. I’m just pointing out some of the reasons for the divide mentioned in the OP. I’m not above it and neither are any of you...we’ve all posted things on here showing that we are all down in the muck, where politics is nowadays.
Going a step further back than “gaining knowledge”, what does all this knowledge of politics revolve around for many of you?
Voting.
How often do we vote? Once every 2 years? Geez, not very often is it?
What if your accusations of voter fraud are correct and your vote really doesn’t end up counting? Talk about a colossal waste of time if that ends up being the case huh?
I’ve noticed that people who try to change the world are usually ones who end up disappointed due to unmet expectations. That could easily be called pessimism and I’m probably a pessimist for thinking that, oh well. If following politics so closely causes you to be frustrated and sad, why continue to do that to yourself?
"I want critics to think about the impact of what they are saying."
That is actually the point of my post. When conservatives accuse me of giving comfort to the enemy or being a terrorist, what kind of an impact do you think that might have? They call the left "useful idiots"- a term that has been used quite a bit on Kevin's blog regarding myself and Dave just used it here. You have to understand that there is a mindset in this country that truly believes this and it is flat out wrong.
Until they get off that shtick it is going to be hard for me to have a productive conversation. I guess I feel like I may have made some small steps but nowhere near where I'd like to be.
Until they get off that shtick it is going to be hard for me to have a productive conversation.
So you do suppose that sentiment is anything like how people on the other side of the discussion feel when you approach topics with the broad brush strokes of "GWB is evil", "conservatives are greedy", etc.?
You have to understand that there is a mindset in this country that truly believes this and it is flat out wrong. (Wait....I've heard that somewhere before.) As HMHC implied, it has little to do with who is right and who is wrong and much more to do with human nature - the natural reaction to being belittled or attacked.
You've stated before that you get your jollies out of, and see value in, rattling cages and getting people to think. But that makes it awfully disingenuous of you to then wonder why people see things the way they do, or to make claims such as "I know what happened" to contradict other viewpoints. By implication your expectation is that thinking equates to alignment with your beliefs, which is clearly a root cause of the divide for both sides.
There are always going to be people that use terms such as "useful idiots" with respect to people of your beliefs, just like there are always going to be people that call me an ass. In my case they'd be right....the jury is still out on your case. The constructive action isn't to argue the validity of the characterization, but rather to understand the characterization and how it came to be. The rest is just name-calling.
I'm not going to deny that I have made mistakes in the past. I've sure been wrong about several things.
There's plenty of blame to go around as to why our country is broken. Bush being evil or not evil has got less to do with it than our population either tuning out of important issues in this country (that's about 100 million or so people) or being so partisan that it is detrimental to getting anything done-which was exactly the goal of Karl Rove. He accomplished his mission of dividing this country to the point of inaction.
By the vary nature of this blog and in regards to the comments above, your point on Rove is almost completely backwards.
I guess I don't get what you mean, dave
You're saying that Rove is responsible (or at least wanted) for polarizing the nation w/ partisan politics. I submit that the comments above regarding the negativity of the left are parital evidence that the souce of said division is on the left.
I don't think that the source of partisanship can be traced 100% to the left. I think both sides can share blame.
I'm certainly not going to spend wondering why a divide exists while at the same time posting very divisive columns filled with vitriol.
People who follow politics are a divided bunch and I'm glad I'm not spending (wasting) time trying to bring people together. There are also a whole lot of folks out there who don't follow politics at all who are full-blown distracted by mindless materialism, video games, booze/drugs and professional sports (among other things).
Maybe I need to get into that, crab, what do you think?
Rove set the playing field and all the left has done is react. In my opinion, moveon.org wouldn't be around if the Bushies hadn't gone off the deep end. Hence the big division.
Naw, don't get addicted to booze or drugs. You're already addicted to fashion.
It would be kind of cool if you got addicted to Krispy Kremes though.
I haven't seen the film. I probably won't because I don't make a regular habit of seeing people get raped in the movies. It's my understanding that it is a true story, no? Did this actually happen?
It is a fictional story and did not actually happen. You are supposed to understand that it happened, however.
This is the definition of propaganda. And it isn't pro-American propaganda.
Okay, let's talk about the Divide. To quote a piece from your own link about Zumbo:
The reason for this is that the people who run the gun lobby are a group of mentally ill Nazis who are so insecure about anyone expressing an opinion that wavers even slightly from canon that any small step out of line is meet with extreme punishment.
Not quite. Had we been Nazis, we would have demanded that Zumbo be locked up in Dachau-On-The-Hudson, that all his writings be expunged from the archives, and so on.
The plain fact of the matter was that Zumbo was wrong in equating AR-15 ownership with terrorism -- W-R-O-N-G -- and it wasn't The Gun Lobby who acted to squelch him like a bug, it was hundreds of thousands of gun owners who didn't see why a writer who was so clearly in the wrong should continue to have a soapbox.
If I wrote for, say, The Economist and said that never mind this cash nonsense, we should all go back to a barter system, I'd be kicked out on my ass, not for my opinion per se, but because I was so wrong.
As was Zumbo about his -- and yes, his wrongness was on that scale.
Please note that in living memory, it has NOT been conservatives who have imposed "speech codes" on campuses, or written scholarly-sounding papers that conservatives are retarded, or suspended grade-school children for drawing innocuous pictures of guns, or tried to create "equal time" for a conservative newspaper simply because the New York Times has such an influential position in defining the news issues of the day (or used to -- before Rush and conservative bloggers came along).
Every single effort to circumscribe the freedom of speech in recent times has come from the Left, and every single effort to circumscribe the freedom to possess guns has come from the Left.
All our elected officials take oaths to uphold the Constitution; but when the Left sees the Constitution as a malleable "living document" (Al Gore) instead of the foundation upon which this country was founded, which needs little or no change, nor even reinterpretation, can you blame conservatives for thinking that liberals are the enemy?
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