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Monday, August 03, 2009

I'm Shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED to find out that gambling has been going on in this establishment.

In addition to having the desire of having my longest blog post title ever, I wanted to kick off my health care week with a bang. Today's front page of the Minneapolis Star and Tribune detailed how exactly how much money the insurance companies are paying three Minnesota members of the House of Representatives. This would be also be known as reason numero uno why most conservatives and Republicans are against any sort of public option. The people that butter their bread are terrified that if any sort of public option passes, they won't be able to afford that third vacation home. So, they are pouring dollar after dollar into the coffers of Michelle Bachmann, Erik Paulsen, and John Kline.

According to the article, insurers and HMOs have spent over 40 million dollars on current members of Congress in the past 10 years. This, of course, pales in comparison to the half a billion dollars they spent lobbying (aka lying) about the perils of government run health care.

Their tactics appear to be working. Late last week, the "liberal media" spent two news cycles reporting that Obama's approval ratings were slipping and this fact was largely due to his drive to pass health care. Even one short month ago, most Americans favored a public option (72 percent). Now it is just higher than 50 percent. And why?

Because conservatives (and their anal lubricant providers) have once again successfully used fear and ignorance as a tactic while the Democrats have spent the last few weeks trying to pull open a door that says "Push." Sadly, as a result, some Americans have done the usual "change-bad, same-good" caveman reaction to yet another classic Goebbelsesque propaganda campaign.

So, as is my duty as a fourth rate blogger, for the next few days, we are going to take a look at health care and separate the facts from the manufactured (surprise, surprise) reality by my colleagues on the right side of the aisle. I think it is going to be fun:)

36 comments:

last in line said...

If the bill isn't getting though, it isn't because of the three names you just listed because Democrats have a veto-proof majority in both the house and the senate. If you think Erik Paulson is the reason why things aren't getting though then just remember that democrats have a veto proof majority.

I hope that you can find time in your fun week to actually talk about what is in the bill. Be sure to remember that democrats have a veto proof majority.

Before I forget, did you know that democrats have a veto proof majority and no republican can do anything to stop them?

blk said...

I just want to know why having an insurance company bureaucrat dictate what doctor I can see is better than a government bureaucrat doing the same.

Insurance companies execs pull down salaries in the range of tens to hundreds of millions of dollars. Those salaries are 100% overhead. The insurance companies do nothing that Medicare or the VA aren't already doing. If government health care is good enough for our seniors and our vets, why isn't it good enough for the people who are paying for it all? (See the Daily Show from last week for Bill Kristol's complete inability to answer this simple question.)

The cause of our high-priced health care is employment-based health care. If individuals had to pay their own bills, they wouldn't do it. Companies pay (most of) the premiums for employees, and deduct this from their taxes. That means all taxpayers are footing the bill for the healthcare that employees get.

Most people have a copay for drugs and healthcare, but it's usually a tiny fraction of the cost charged to the insurance company. So there's no cost-based incentive to drive costs down. The insurance companies, the doctors and the companies are all happy to have the government fund all of this through corporate tax deductions.

If regular people had to pay the full costs, they just wouldn't do it. Regular market forces would drive the costs down, and force the inefficiencies out of the system. But we don't really have a "market" for health care. It's an insurance company monopoly financed by tax deductions.

truth girl said...

"I just want to know why having an insurance company bureaucrat dictate what doctor I can see is better than a government bureaucrat doing the same."

I'll tell you why. Because Ayn Rand said so!

But seriously, there is no difference. Rationing goes on every day and insurance companies dictate which doctors you can and cannot see. By having a government option, there will be more choice not less.

last in line said...

The bill that is in congress doesn't create a market either.

I proposed a healthcare solution for this country some time ago on this blog. I never defended the status quo and I don't think that insurance companies are the solution.

I just want to know what you all think of the bill that is in congress right now. Lots of people think that something needs to be done...perhaps people don't think that what is in obamas bill is the answer.

last in line said...

"By having a government option, there will be more choice not less."

Prove it.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdx_2cuPgQQ

rld said...

That's a good youtube video last. More choice? Not according to the lines of people in that video. We all know insurance companies stink. Perhaps you all need to convince people that what is in the bill before congress is the right way to go.

dick nixon said...

Wow. Nice video, last....that exactly sums up Mark's point about fear mongering. The guy practically crying about "waiting for radiation therapy" was priceless and quite a good performance. The little girl was a nice touch as well. Goebbels would be proud.

Stossel is a stooge of the right and has developed his own fanboy cult similar to Goldberg. One thing that he fails to realize (and obviously conservatives as well) is that American can do better. In fact, where is that nationalistic pride, last, in your country that we can work out some of the problems that both Canada and Great Britain have? I guess we can't because the government is always bad, right? And you rip Mark for narrow minded thinking.

We spend more money than any other country in the world and get less for it. All of the scenarios presented in your video, last, already happen. They just don't happen to you so you really don't give a shit and don't have an open mind at all about government run anything.

It is a fact that Medicare is one of the most successful and popular government run programs in the history of this country.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/mp_20090629_2600.php

People don't wait and suffer and with the new Medicare drug laws, they are even happier.

I don't think I was posting here when you presented your plan but I sure would like to see it. If it's anything like the video you shared with us, it might be good for a laugh.

Mark Ward said...

Actually, dick, last has some good ideas in his plan so it comes as a surprise to me that he put the video up and devolved back into the "fear-shit your pants" meme.

I think I'll put it out front later in the week. Take out the words "government health care" and insert the word "Jew" or "Communist" and it does look like a film from Germany circa 1934.

last in line said...

Go ahead and read it Dick. Archives of this blog, May of 2007, comment section of the presidential profile of Mitt Romney.

I'm seeing a pattern here. Neither of you disputed anything you saw in that video. You just assigned a label to it. Some of the things you saw in that video are measurable, like average wait times or number of available beds. You simply can't measure "they are even happier" except via subjective polls.

And apparantly neither one of you feel like letting the readers here know what is actually in the bill that is being debated and voted on in Congress right now.

dick nixon said...

Actually, I did dispute the entire video. Did you go read the link? Medicare is a successfully run government program that is popular and offers a high level of care to citizens of our country who are over 65. That pretty much torpedoes everything in the video, dude.

Mark Ward said...

What is actually in the bill....ooo...you mean the part about where all the old ladies get raped by cossacks?

And, at this point, it's billS plural...and yes, I will be talking about them though I am certain it won't be to your level of satisfaction.

juris imprudent said...

This would be also be known as reason numero uno why most conservatives and Republicans are against any sort of public option.

Has nothing to do with why I oppose it. I kinda don't figure you to grok that though.

juris imprudent said...

I just want to know why having an insurance company bureaucrat dictate what doctor I can see is better than a government bureaucrat doing the same.

Because rather than letting either do that you could of course pay for seeing the doctor yourself. How is THAT for radical?

Oh wait, I remember, everyone wants someone ELSE to pay. Yeah, a 100% Ponzi scheme. Good luck with that folks.

juris imprudent said...

By having a government option, there will be more choice not less.

In the land of the blind the one-eyed woman is queen.

Now I can see why none of ya wanted to play on the Bill Maher thread about profit in health-care.

Last in line said...

I did read your link dick. It talks about polls related to the quality of care people in our country get. The youtube video talks about conditions in the Canadian and English health care systems. 2 separate things, but in your mind, polls about the quality of US health care torpedo facts about foreign health care systems. Wow.

The care those people in your article get is the same care you and I get because they go to the same doctors and hospitals that you and I go to. How the hell can you say we "get less for it", then post a link showing how much people in our country love the health care they are getting?

Your article mentions nothing about the upcoming insolvency of the medicare program itself. For every article like that you have, I have ones like these...

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2009/05/obamas_public_health_plan_will.html

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/006105.html

From that last one, 330 baby boomers are turning 60 EVERY HOUR nowadays. When they all hit the already bankrupt medicare system in a couple years, you think there will be enough taxpayers in our country to cover the increased costs that the program will have to absorb?

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/06/09/the_coming_crisis_for_medicare/

Is that link your definition of success? Notice the article is from 2007, before the economic problems we have now.

You say you dispute the entire video but you really didn't...you just said you did. Your statement "All of the scenarios presented in your video, last, already happen" in your first post is followed by "Actually, I did dispute the entire video" in your second post. Which is it? You are about as consistent as diarrhea.

I guess I should listen to you instead of the Canadian doctor in the video who actually worked in the system. That town really doesn't hold a lottery. Canadian Rick Baker, who is profiled in the video, probably runs a Ponzi scheme. The Canadian government really didn't consider that womans surgery elective, she's making that all up right? So you're telling me that those foreign leaders DIDN'T come to the US for treatment? Tell me what you are disputing. Nut up.

Why don't you name for me a few recent government programs that were set up to solve a problem, actually solved the problem, did it under budget, and went away after the problem was solved. Good luck.

"In fact, where is that nationalistic pride, last, in your country that we can work out some of the problems that both Canada and Great Britain have?"

The problems they have are not the problems we have. We don't have long waits for simple diagnostic tests. And how the hell did you conclude that I "don't give a shit"?

My level of satisfaction would be for some of you to nut up and post your ideal healthcare plans for this nation, and then explain how it will work in the economic conditions we currently find ourselves in. Bitching about insurance companies is easy.

juris imprudent said...

...is that American can do better.

Damn, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The irony of that line coming out of a liberal posting under the nom-de-blog of "dick nixon".

People don't wait and suffer and with the new Medicare drug laws, they are even happier.

Yeah, never mind that it is unsustainable under the current tax structure. Bread and circuses NOW!

juris imprudent said...

Because conservatives (and their anal lubricant providers) have once again successfully used fear and ignorance as a tactic while the Democrats have spent the last few weeks trying to pull open a door that says "Push."

Hey ASSHOLE. Your party doesn't need ONE FUCKING REPUBLICAN VOTE. Ya got that? Good, now fuck yourself raw because we have all the lube.

After you're done with that, sit that chafed little pucker down and try to swallow that it is YOUR PARTY and YOUR PRESIDENT who insisted this had to be done in such a hurry and now look like failures because YOUR OWN PARTY couldn't agree. Now, why the big goddam hurry? Is there a FEAR that if they don't use the 'current crisis atmosphere' the whole thing won't fly? Remember the Repubs and the Patriot Act - you're getting a free re-play but you're a little too groggy from the fleeting pleasure of masturbating while mewling about evil conservatives to catch that. I only wish that I could sit back and watch the royal fucking you are all about to endure - the problem is I'm going to get it too. And I don't like it one goddam bit.

Kevin said...

The bottom line is I don't WANT it. I don't WANT to delegate something as personal and important as my healthcare decisions to a faceless bureaucrat thousands of miles away. You and your ilk are going to FORCE me to give up my ability to make those decisions, should this pass. What is it with you people and your obsession with control? Doesn't the government control and regulate enough of our lives already? When will it be too much? Ever? Have you ANY idea what you're opening the door to?

Kevin said...

You know what socialized medicine is, right? It's rationed care. When the government gives something away for "free", demand skyrockets. Look at cash for clunkers.
In England, the government has actually assigned a value to life. It's somewhere in the region of 35000 pounds (about $55K) per year. You go over that, you're fucked. My dad has had four surgeries this year, each one of which easily topped that limit. Thank God he wasn't still back in England, or I might be visiting him at a cemetery right now. Thank God FOR the evil, capitalistic American healthcare system. You guys have NO IDEA what you're signing on to.

Mark Ward said...

But who is to say that it will be anything like the UK, Kevin? Isn't America the best country on the planet? Don't we kick ass and take names in everything we do?

I see a lot of pride when it comes to how well our military does but when it comes to anything else our government does, we suck?

Isn't it possible that we can learn from the mistakes of the Canadian and Brit systems and improve upon them? Talk about a defeatist attitude. If I were conservative, I would label you as anti American.

"I don't WANT to delegate something as personal and important as my healthcare decisions to a faceless bureaucrat thousands of miles away."

I don't know what health care you have right now but this happens already. See my above post.

juris imprudent said...

Isn't it possible that we can learn from the mistakes of the Canadian and Brit systems and improve upon them?

That might be believable if it weren't for the insistence on fundamentally re-creating them.

What you are saying is, we can design a hammer to be a wrench.

last in line said...

"Isn't it possible that we can learn from the mistakes of the Canadian and Brit systems and improve upon them?"

If it's possible then let us know how. You guys are supposed to be the smart people and we're supposed to be the stupid people.

Hey Juris, did you know that the democrats hold a veto-proof majority in the house and the senate?!?!?!?

Mark Ward said...

"If it's possible then let us know how."

Well, to begin with, how about the fact that our system won't be single payer? There will be both private and public options. Canada and Britain are not set up that way. And how come we never hear any horror stories about the ol' reliable whipping boy of the right...France? Could it be because their system is single payer and WORKS?

"did you know that the democrats hold a veto-proof majority in the house and the senate?!?!?!?"

Except what good does it do when you have the minority running a relentless propaganda campaign based solely upon fear and ignorance. I thought it would be a good idea to start a blog for the PTO at my kids' school and everyone agreed...except the one person who brought up how people could hack it and put porn on there. Even though I rationally explained to everyone that, while it was possible, it was not likely with the appropriate security features already built into blogger.

But no. Once it was brought up the ignorant masses gave into fear of the unknown and it became arm pit scratching time..which is what I see when I see all these town hall meetings with people yelling.

last in line said...

So the veto proof majority doesn't matter...you're telling us a propoganda campaign is what matters here? Why did you all vote last November?

Perhaps what obama is proposing isn't adding up.

Obama wants to insure more people and lower the total cost of care. In economic terms, he wants to control price and quantity from the top down. What makes Obama think he can skip over the concept of supply and demand? Obama says he wants to encourage medical students to become primary-care physicians via financial incentives, reversing the trend toward specialization, which is where the money is. It takes a long time to produce more doctors. Once the government starts to dictate budgets and salaries in an effort to control costs, medicine becomes a less attractive profession.

You keep accusing opponents of the health-care plan of "scaring everybody" with intimations of rationing. Obama told his Raleigh audience last week that "if we do nothing, I can almost guarantee you your premiums will double". I suppose you think that is somehting different than what you have been railing against on here.

Have you considered the possibility that Obama needs a better plan and a more convincing argument? As a group, the elderly are the largest consumers of health care services. If you want to cut costs, you have to go where it’s being spent. You need to go convince them.

There will be both private and public? In that situation, the government insurer can conquer the market quickly for two reasons. First, the government can coerce large cost concessions from providers, much larger than those negotiated by private firms. In the current system, Medicare pays lower fees for many services than private providers do. If the government insurer pays those same fees, it will have an advantage over private companies. Second, unlike private companies, the government insurer can lose money every year and stay in business. Even the most brilliant entrepreneur will eventually lose to a competitor that can provide potentially unbounded subsidies to its customers.

I have a bet with myself as to what day this week the commenters on this blog will hit on the crux of their problem in selling obamas heath-care bill. Pointing out a problem doesn't automatically suggest a solution. I'm certain that the American public is absolutely aware that the health-care system we have now has tremendous inefficiencies and that costs are rising too much. It's certainly possible the public is aware of the problems and still remain unsure about Obama's proposed solution. Questioning why conservatives don't talk about France will not help to sell your proposed plan because senior citizens probably aren't going to give a fuk.

juris imprudent said...

Once it was brought up the ignorant masses gave into fear of the unknown and it became arm pit scratching time

Damn, and here I thought I was the elitist asshole.

What ever happened to that talk about "elections have consequences" - I guess that doesn't count when your OWN PARTY isn't goose-stepping to a leftist beat.

juris imprudent said...

Hey Juris, did you know that the democrats hold a veto-proof majority in the house and the senate?!?!?!?

Yeah I heard something about that. I think they won the White House too. Funny how the Repubs are still to blame. Kinda reminds me of the idiot-meme of libertarians being to blame for the failures of govt under Bush.

Last in line said...

I heard something about those veto-proof majorities in both houses too. Kind of makes me want to rewrite this song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spSNdTp0cVc

"I got 50 bentleys in the West Indies...IT DOESN'T MATTER!

In both the house and senate I got majorities...IT DOESN'T MATTER!"

GrumpyOldFart said...

Now I can see why none of ya wanted to play on the Bill Maher thread about profit in health-care.

I think you'll like my comment there.

They just don't happen to you so you really don't give a shit and don't have an open mind at all about government run anything.

This wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to address it anyway. You're right, I don't have an open mind about government run anything. Wanna guess why?

Two major reasons:

1) Philosophical: Government doesn't have to persuade me that I want what they're selling in order to get my money, whereas the private sector does. With a government program once a majority of my neighbors get suckered into it, we are all for good or ill forced, on pain of having our freedom taken away should we refuse, to foot the bill for it in perpetuity.

Therefore anything I want to retain personal control of should be in the free market, where if I don't like what they're selling, I don't have to buy any, regardless of how many of my neighbors do.

2) Practical: Leave my healthcare in the hands of organizations as blatantly criminal, fraudulent and wasteful as Congress and the White House? Are you MENTAL?!?

These are the organizations that lost money on a whorehouse, right? That Federal Government?

Note that #2 has nothing to do with which party is in power.

rld said...

How could the propaganda campaign be the reason for the failure? I thought nobody was listening to Rush and Glen Beck anymore.

juris imprudent said...

How could the propaganda campaign be the reason for the failure?

Well rld it MUST be that, because otherwise the progressives would have to confront the reality that the Dems bought their majority by reaching out to the center-right. The progressives much prefer the delusion that all the non-progressives had a revelation, and only evil nasty propaganda is fogging the minds of the new converts. Eventually the delusion will melt away and the cries to purge the heretics will replace the wailing about the nasty right-wingers.

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