It is about a man....a man of the cloth named Gregory A. Boyd.
Greg Boyd (left) is the minister at Woodland Hills Church in Maplewood, Minnesota. Reverend Boyd founded the church in 1992 with 40 members and over the years its congregation grew to 5000 people. Reverend Boyd has degrees from Yale Divinity School and has taught theology classes at Bethel College in St. Paul.He is best known, amongst many evangelical Christians, for his book, Letters From A Skeptic. The book shares written conversations with his agnostic father who Boyd eventually converted to Christianity.
A few years back, he attended a megachurch's worship service on the 4th of July. At the end of the service, everyone sang "God Bless America" while a video was shown of fighter jets flying over crosses. He became troubled at the thought of military displays juxtaposed with Christian images and he began to speak out about it.
He gave a series of sermons that proclaimed, among other things, that America is not a Christian nation, theocracies are very dangerous, politics of any kind has no place in a church, and that patriotism should not be confused with Jesus Christ. He spoke of the need for the separation of church and state, that Jesus (not America) was the light of the world, and (this is the one that really pissed people off) good Christians should strive to win people's hearts not force their point of view on them.
Huh. Imagine that.Well, guess what happened next? Hundreds of "Christians" started firing back at the good Reverend, claiming that any true believer would vote Republican and allow anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage leaflets to be handed out during church services. The outrage was particularity prevalent during the 2004 presidential campaign. Reverend Boyd responded by calling them hypocrites obsessed by sex and the right to fervently display their faith in public...two things Jesus would never have been concerned with at all.
In the end, about a thousand people left his church. Most of them were white, middle to upper class suburbanites who felt that Boyd was a traitor to Christianity. Since that time, Woodland Hills Church has welcomed many other ethnic groups such as African-Americans, Hispanics and Hmong immigrants from Laos. If you ask Reverend Boyd, that's just how it should be. Looking back he says, “I don’t regret any aspect of it at all. It was a defining moment for us. We let go of something we were never called to be. "
I was given much hope after reading this story. Most of you know that I have a real problem with the majority of evangelical Christians. Their unholy alliance with conservatives in this country has created an environment where if you are a "real" American, you HAVE to be a Christian. And if you are true Christian, you have to love America because the United States has the corner market on Jesus and what He wants for the world.
I take heart in the fact that this wonderful man has stood up to this and said no. No. This is not Jesus Christ. This is not him. He does not speak of the sanctity of life while bombing the shit out people half a world away. He does not want to "conquer" people but serve people. He wants to welcome and love everyone not disclude and hate people who are different.
I can now breath a little easier at night knowing that I have an ally in my struggle to educate the uninformed. Reverend Boyd, you are a man of true courage and I thank you very, very much.
22 comments:
Oh there is one glaring contradiction I see...
You have a real problem with the "majority" of evangelical Christians. Yet your own writings in this latest blog column tell me us only 20% (1000 out of 5000 people) of the congregation left this mans church in protest. That leaves 80% of the congregation that had no problem with what he said. Then you tell us that many more Christians joined his church after the fact.
Math was my worst subject...so using this story as a random sampling of evangelicals serves to prove your assessment of what a "majority of evangelicals really want" to be a little off base. Just an observation.
Your whole "unholy alliance" is simply your feelings and you know that just because you "feel" something, that doesn't make it true. Maybe there are other reasons that the evangelicals are voting Republican. Want me to start listing examples? (Jesusland come to mind??)
Why do evangelical christians vote Republican? Help me out on that one. I'm sure if Jesus were alive today he'd be a prominent member of the Republican party.
Yeah, I can really see Jesus having kind words for guns, and war, torture. And I could see him right there with the Minutemen refusing water to immmigrants in the desert between US and Mexican border.
Per Crab's comments, the reason why evangelicals vote Republican is because they have been brainwashed into believing that the right represents their interests in regards to values. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not saying the Democrats are any holier, but where are the values in our current leadership?
I am not "feeling" anything. It is a simple fact that a large group of intolerant people make up the Republican party.
You want to know whay they vote republican? It’s sort of like the Unions and the Democrats: there is nowhere else for them to go. Until you libs give them a reason to vote FOR you, they won’t be voting democrat. Then again, what do I know? I’m not even an evangelical and I don’t care how anyone else around me votes. So evangelicals think that you can only be an American if you vote GOP. Big fucking deal, what do I care.
Remember in the 60s when liberals took up the God is Dead kick? That’s when it all started and it has continued up to today. You reap what you sow. You have Michael Moore poking fun at most of America (calling it Jesusland) and he gets one of the most prominent seats at the Democratic National Convention? And you two educated people can’t figure that out? Duuuh! Situations like that are a happy hunting ground for those within the religious community, seeking political power of their own, to ally with the GOP and throw open the door to the flocks because the Democratic party, in their elitist snobbery (which they seem to have a patent on these days), sneered at those with faith that the GOP had to do little but welcome their support with open arms. While church attendance is way down among the traditional Protestant and Catholic Churches, it isn't among fundamentalist churches and old line Protestant churches have lost members in the droves by interjecting their liberal politics into the faiths. So people may be rejecting the churches brought to these shores from Europe, but many did not reject religion all together but moved where they felt welcome both religiously and to a party that will not sneer at them for choosing to express their faith in public as they wish as articulated in the First Amendment.
Values? God supported David when he killed Goliath.
I don’t know if Jesus would be a republican or a democrat these days and I don’t care.
What do you all care how evangelicals vote? Didn’t your last column call on people to "mind their own business"? Notice we don’t see any columns on why union members overwhelmingly vote democrat. You see, it’s OK when a certain group of people blindly vote democrat, that doesn’t even deserve a mention.
You know, both you libs think people who disagree with you on a couple of hot-button issues are "intolerant" and you’re both on record claiming that conservatism is based on intolerance. Even last weekend, around some people who I had only recently met, Markadelphia started a sentence with "Even though Crab is intolerant on some issues...". WTF??? Yep, within 4 minutes of meeting some new people, he is already talking about George Bush and finding out their opinion on him (presumably to find out their level of intelligence – if they hate GWB, well, they must be educated and well informed on the issues of the day right?). Like I said, you all think about GWB twice as much than the people who actually voted for him. I am on record on this blog stating that I don’t care if 2 gay people want to get married and I still get called intolerant. Keep making excuses as to why you are losing elections. The fact is that you are doing NOTHING to bring those people over to your side when you piss and moan about a cross being near city hall or something trivial like that. Markadelphia and I were walking into the Crystal community Center one time and he noticed that a meeting was scheduled for some church group in one of the meeting rooms and his words were "If I lived in Crystal I would be pissed off and would go raise hell"...and you all STILL wonder why religious people don’t vote your way??????
You two can have your little open minded (what a laugh) oasis here, this will be my last post on here for a while. Fuck your charges of intolerance toward anyone who disagrees with you.
There are plenty of Union people that I know that voted for Bush. He has a "regular" guy appeal to middle America so I don't think your comments here are all completely accurate.
If you spent a few hours of time researching the history of religion, particularly Christianity, you will understand why the "God is Dead" thing happened. You are talking about a group of people (your "evil libs") who were rebelling against a large group of hate mongers. I am not a hate monger. Accuse me all you want of being intolerant towards people but it's just simply not true.
The subject of George Bush was not brought up by me at all. They brought it up and sorry, dude, but I am going to voice my opinion. To me it's not a measure of intelligence, it's a matter of open-mindedness. You have a very set view on how you see the world. It is full of inaccuracies, half truths, and stubborness when it comes to the subject of politics.
You don't care if 2 gay people get married and yet you support the people that are anti-gay by voting for them. You can't bring yourself to vote for a Democrat and yet I have voted for plenty of Republicans in my time.
My "side" is the one with people who are open-minded, thoughtful, knowledge-hungry, peaceful, and loving. We also draw strength from intelligence, not fear and ignorance, and are smart about how and when to defend ourselves.
This is NOT the Republicans, mostly. And it is not the Democrats, although they make feeble attempts at trying to be this way.
How do you expect me to be open minded about a group of people that are willfully ignorant? Sorry, but I will never be open mined about Hitler. Kudos to you if you can be.
I disagree with people about plenty of things.....economics, foreign policy, health care etc but when it comes to direct physical and emotional harm to people, that where I draw the line. If someone thinks that one economic plan is better than mine, that's a disagreement and I wouldn't accuse them of being intolerant. If someone thinks that a raped women must bear that child, than that person is fucking asshole and is an intolerant Cro Magnon. There comes a time when "point of view" disagrement becomes as woeful as understatement as "Hitler...yeah, he was kind of a dork."
I think the reason why you are pissed off is that you are slowly beginning to realize that the people that you have supported for many years are, quite simply, criminals. They don't quite jibe with what you hoped they would be...with what your values are, which are good.
Change is a hard thing. I know this more than anyone. It has to happen, though, otherwise the path that we have been set on for the last six years will lead to our demise.
I know that many union members vote GOP but that isn’t the point. I just don’t see you railing against groups that vote overwhelmingly Dem.
I never said you were intolerant of anyone and I never called you a hate monger. I’m just curious how a church group full of senior citizens having a meeting for a couple hours on a Sunday at the local community center is equal to a state sponsored endorsement of religion. Come to think of it, whether or not it is an endorsement of any 1 religion doesn’t really have anything to do with the fact that you can’t see how religious people won’t vote for your lefty candidates when you all hail Michael Moore (who calls the red states “Jesusland”) and you want to tell senior citizens to find another place to have a church meeting. Way to bring everyone together.
Hate mongers? Maybe the libs were only railing against the leadership of a certain movement but it sure looks like they pissed off the general population of religious people in this country as a whole. You reap what you sow. You made your bed, now lay in it.
You absolutely brought up George Bush yourself. Yep, we didn’t even make it to the theater and you brought him up. I even bet Claudio that on the first day you met him you would bring up George Bush to him that first day you played tennis. I won that bet, you brought it up to him. Must be one hell of an obsession. Whether or not I have a set view of things is immaterial to the fact that you are telling people that don’t really know me that I am an intolerant person on many issues (your words, not mine). In other words – don’t ever fucking do that again.
So is someone who hates GWB with every fiber of their being considered “open minded” in your book?
So Republicans and evangelicals are “willfully ignorant”. Typical, way to bring everyone together. I enjoyed the Hitler reference too, as if he has anything to do with anything we are talking about. Who the hell is saying that you have to be tolerant of Hitler? Kind of like your bullshit comments a couple months ago comparing my statements to me saying a rape victim would be asking to be raped. You are using a rhetorical tool in the world of debate called reduction ad absurdum – you take your opponents argument to it’s most extreme conclusion possible (ie insinuate that Crab is asking people to be tolerant of Adolf Hitler or insinuating that Crab himself is tolerant of Hitler) so that your audience will see that my argument can be applied to an end that most people would find laughable, then you’ll have your opponent backpedaling. It was a nice try though. Not going to work.
I think your reasons why I am pissed off couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m pissed off because you are telling people who don’t know me that I am an intolerant person. So even though I disagree with the Republicans position on the gay marriage issue, I’m STILL intolerant because I vote for them based on a host of other issues like economics. Intolerance is a state of mind, it can't be defined by a ballot. So does this mean that everyone in this nation who votes Republican is intolerant?
Know that you are not “educating” anyone here. I firmly believe that the people around me are smart enough to make up their own mind about things and they don’t need anyone to “educate” them. Obviously you think the people around you are pretty dumb.
Is someone who hates Hitler "close minded?" In your mind Hitler is a bad guy and George Bush is a good guy. While I don't think George Bush is as "obviously" evil as Hitler, he and his pals certainly use many plays from the Nazi handbook. This is not opinion, it is fact.
And this is where your argument goes into the an unreality...
"the libs were only railing against the leadership of a certain movement but it sure looks like they pissed off the general population of religious people in this country as a whole. You reap what you sow. You made your bed, now lay in it.
The reason why the "libs" attacked religion in the first place is because of the rotten things that THOSE people were doing in the first place. Go and research the bloody history of Christianity and take a look at what people have done in this country in the name of God. Evangelicals are not the innocents you make them out to be. Ah, yes. The poor old victim routine again. What a joke.
There wouldn't have been any problem with the "libs" in the first place if the christian zealots in this country weren't using their religion the way Hitler used his.
Which was the whole reason why I salute Greg Boyd, someone who I disagree with on many things, yet I still respect him for not being an asshole about it (aka NCDs.)
How can I play the victim routine when I'm not even an evangelical? I haven't even been to church in 10 years.
No, the "victims" on this board are the 3 liberals who post on here on a regular basis, each of their households probably make double the amount of money I make per year, who consistently say how rotten things are going in this country and who are all "victims" of the NCDs and their electoral power.
You would be better served trying to listen to those people rather than calling them all "willfully ignorant".
So you're saying that todays Evangelicals are not the innocents I make them out to be? Whether that is true or not...are you STILL wondering why they don't vote your way when you make statements like that? When was the last time mass murder took place in the name of Christianity? Talk to Doris, who grew up in Germany, and she will tell you that Hitler had quite a disdain for religion.
Yes, Christianity has a bloody history. Railing against them today for stuff that happened decades or centuries ago serves what purpose? It's like somebody railing against the democratic party today for their actions in the south during the civil rights movement. The crusades and the inquisition took place centuries ago, before the Renaissance.
PL already had too much fun with your definition of "fact".
Since I'm intolerant not based on the thoughts in my head but because of the way my ballot looks after I vote, I decided that I'm going to vote straight GOP this year, effectiveley cancelling out your vote...and know that my happiness is not derived from who wins elections, something so far out of your immediate sphere of influence it is astounding.
Not speaking about you or anyone else I know, but blind hatred of GWB is just as closed minded as blind loyalty to him.
But there is nothing blind about hating someone who is effectively destroying your way life.
True, Bush Co. is not directly abusing my children the way a child molester would but they have:
1. Financially ruined this country with his reckless spending. (See: Bruce Bartlett's Imposter for the facts.)
2. Purposefully has ignored global warming (See: An Inconvinient Truth with Al Gore) so that in my children's lifetime, they WILL suffer.
3. Caused more people to work more for less money (See: Laura Ingraham)while people like myself, who you consider to be rich, are now the new middle class and the people that have a ton of money are just fine, thank you very much.
4. Wasted human life in the Middle East for corporate profit. (See: my blog). You can't ignore the facts on this one. People on both sides have lost their lives in Iraq for...what exactly? We are responsible. And American companies have benefited from this.
So, in your mind, I should just say, "Well, shucks, that's just an opinion. And, by golly, there must be another point of view in there somewhere so I should really just be fair. Land-a-goshin, my bias is what is really screwing me up!"
Sorry, dude, but ah, for a conservative you are pretty short on repsonsibility....which is the NCD attitude these days: I can do anything I want and when I get called on it...well, that's just someone's opinion, not fact, that's just how they feel. And all those libs do is feel.....
Here is a test for you and any other conservative out there....how far is too far?
Step One: Bush Co lying about the War and controlling the media.
Step Two: Bush Co stealing money.
Step Three: Bush Co killing, accidently or otherwise, innocent people in Iraq.
Step Four: Bush Co. sending large quantities of Americans to camps.
Step Five: Bush Co. calling for ritual sacrafices of children for freedom.
Please explain to me if any of these five examples are justified or would be in anyway.
So GWB is destroying your way of life? God that’s looney. What was that you said earlier about the victim mentality? That statement right there proves again that you lefties see yourselves, and others, as passive, helpless victims of powerful external forces.
He may be destroying your way of life but I have to say that I’m doing just fine. I have a ton of hobbies I have been enjoying this summer, I’m going back to Europe this fall, I have a good job, I just bought a new car and paid cash for it, I’m maxing out my 401K contributions, life is good (and I do all that on less than $50k per year). I’m so glad I’m not going though the bleak existence of a life where some politician is responsible for my future or day-to-day happiness and I’m glad I don’t judge people simply by how they vote.
1. Financially ruined our country - Name for me 1 deficit that caused a collapse of the US economy. I’ll save you the time – the answer is zero. The sky isn’t falling.
2. It was only 4 years ago that you were in a shouting match at Murrays with Stephan and Charlie where you argued that there was no such thing as global warming. I was there. My how fast times change.
3. Caused more people to work more for less money? I say “That’s life, suck it up and live within your means”. In tough economic times, folks have a couple of choices, none of them attractive:
1. Take a job less than you want, until something better comes along.
2. Start your own business, and don't depend on someone else.
3. Rob the local 7/11, and let the state take care of you for a couple of years...for an extended vacation, use a gun.
I never said you were rich, I said the ones on this board who make the most money are the also the ones complaining about how shitty things are going in this country. See the irony in that?
For those of you who are dependent on whatever president is in charge at the time to create your next job; I truly feel sorry for you.
Here are some specific actions the Individual needs to take to create their own jobs.
1. Stop having kids you can't afford
2. Embrace Education as a tool of self improvement
3. Embrace initiative and hard work
4. Remain flexible and positive in your approach to life
5. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country
Clinton had a 5.8% unemployment average throughout his Presidency. Right now, the unemployment rate is 4.7%.
Look, when the going gets tough get up off your ass and do something about it. Someone might have to (gasp) work 2 jobs. Nobody in this country is owed a paycheck or guaranteed a high paying job. We must make our own way in every economic situation. It is up to the individual, not the government. The last thing in the world I’d ever do is sit around whining that it was the president's fault that I didn't make as much money as I think I should. I may not be as brilliant as the liberal elite, but I sure have fun laughing at them.
4. “for corporate profit”. Saying thats is the only reason we went over there is your opinion since you are not GWB and were not in any of those white house meeting leading up to the war.
When you say things like “ruined this country”, “reckless”, “my children WILL suffer”, “wasted human life for corporate profit”, those ARE all opinion (with one prediction thrown in the mix). There is lots of human life being lost in the Sudan right now, why don’t you bring that up sometime? I thought you cared about innocent human life?
I’m the most responsible person I know – I’m not the one on the internet whining that my future is in the hands of some politician and out of my hands, that my offspring will suffer because some politician ignores Al Gore’s movie, or that the deficit is going to ruin my childrens future, and so on.
Did you know that just over the past 11 quarters, America has increased the size of its entire economy by 20 percent? In less than three years, the U.S. economic pie has expanded by $2.2 trillion, an output add-on that is roughly the same size as the total Chinese economy, and much larger than the total economic size of nations like India, Mexico, Ireland, and Belgium.
The Dow was 9,800 in March 2000, it closed at 11,200 today.
The American economy has created more jobs than all the countries in the Euro zone and Japan combined, and our economy is growing today faster than that of any major industrialized nation in the world.
It grew at an annual rate of 4.8 percent in the first quarter. It added more than 5.2 million jobs in the last two and a half years.
I guess all is lost since gays can’t marry.
Your “test” is lame and is nothing more than the reality that is concretely formed in your mind based on movies you've seen, books you've read, and what you've seen in the media. Controlling the media, stealing money, killing?
I'm actually beginning to think that you might be on to something with this "weep for the future" mentality, Markadelphia. I had my eyes opened to a vision of a truly chilling future reality just this morning. I thought that I was a reasonably educated person who made an attempt to stay on top of what was happening in the world, but I was absolutely unprepared for what transpired this morning.
Now don't me wrong. I'm not talking about global warming, or corporate greed, or alleged plots by ncds to control our minds. Nope. I'm talking about how widespread utter stupidity and lunacy is in this country. I'm beginning to think that maybe all is lost in this country.
According to a recent Scripps Howard poll:
** 1 in 3 Americans believe the US assisted in or knew of and consciously took no action to stop the 9/11 attacks
** 1 in 6 Americans believe demolitions brought down the WTC towers
** 1 in 8 Americans believe it was a Cruise missle that struck the Pentagon
These are the people gathering momentum to "take our country back from the criminals." Dear lord, we are screwed.
Yep PL, Listening to those people with their conspiracy theories is like being bukakked with stupid.
(if you don't know what bukakke is, google it, but don't google it at work - trust me)
I saw that poll you mentioned and I don't feel so bad because in the 4th question they asked, 6 out of 7 Americans still think that True Grit is the best John Wayne movie ever made, followed closely by Big Jake.
To PL's comments first, do you think that the US government has been completely honest with us about 9/11? I am not just talking about "for reasons of national security."
I have a serious problem with some of the things that happened on that day and the explanations that followed. Why exactly are we "screwed" when people are honestly trying to find answers to some tough questions?
You bring up an interesting point which segues into Crabs long tirade. Americans think that things like coup d'etats, corruption, and flat out barbarous behavior ONLY happen in other countries but never here. Oh no. We are perfect. And anyone that questions that is a "looney conspiracy theorist."
Here is a question for you. I went to Target the other day. They have 40 HD security cameras in their store. They could see the grey hairs on my beard and the mole on left temple.
So, you tell me, PL, why does the Pentagon, the most secure place in the world and the nerve center of our armed forces, only have two, grainy still image cameras that barely captured a blur in the attack on the Pentagon? Why have they refused to show us the gas station camera from across the street? National Security? Why? If it was a plane, they would shut people up by showing it to us. There are many, many questions about that day and none of them have been answered.
Crab, I am glad you are happy. I am not. George Bush himself is not destroying my way of life. His policies and administration are doing it. I guess lunacy loves company because most people think our country is going in the wrong direction. Your stats that you have thrown out are half truths. Yes, unemployment is down. But people are working harder for less money. Our new Treasury Secretary, Henry Paulson, gave a speech recently (a topic for a future column) in which he cited the widening gap between the wealthy and the rest of the country. He also cited no increase in standard of living over the last 20 years.
The future looks mighty grim for my children but don't take my word for it. Why don't you go at research something that supports my point of view and refutes yours? I usually do the same thing when I am arguing a point. It makes you understand the other side a whole lot better. I know the other side of the argument pretty well, which is part of my growing frustration.
As far as the global warming thing goes, I was riffing on the George Carlin thing where he claims that enviromentatilist are full of shit. They are. They think the Earth is going to be destroyed. It is not. The Earth will be fine. What won't be fine is our ability to live on it because of our burning of fossil fuels....another way my kids will be fucked. We are petty things compared to the power of our planet but we are powerful enough to fuck ourselves over. And that was my whole point to Stephan and Charlie, who seemed to feel that we were important enough to destroy the planet.
The fact that you would wonder aloud "why exactly are we screwed" is the answer to that very question. What an interesting conundrum.
There is no question that our government has not revealed 100% of what it knows re: 9/11. I make no claim to the contrary. I also categorically reject your "Americans think...." judgment as another invalid generalization that doesn't belong in such a discussion. Neither HMHC or I have made any such claims and have been just as forthcoming as you, if not more so, about bad things that this country has done and continues to do.
Why haven't we seen all of the video from the Pentagon? Why didn't the Pentagon have better security cameras? Oh I don't know. Maybe:
** Rumsfeld was getting a bj from a hooker in the Pentagon parking lot at the time the plane hit. This was a regular occurrence, so the budget for Pentagon security cameras had been slashed.
** Perhaps the Pentagon was acutely aware of the continuous pissing and moaning about being over budget and chose not to pursue the installation of security cameras that could capture what was deemed the unlikely scenario of somebody flying a plane into the building.
** Perhaps they don't want to release other video because it clearly illustrates the utter failure of defense and response surrounding the building.
But that's just silly conjecture. I think the most likely explanation they don't release all of the video they might have is that they don't feel the least bit compelled to satisfy the nutjobs out there. The same nutjobs who:
** conveniently ignore the questions regarding what exactly happened to flight 77 and the people on it if it didn't hit the Pentagon.
** conveniently ignore the multitude of eyewitness accounts of the AA plane striking the building, deciding that they are mistaken or that "the government got to them".
** conveniently ignore photos of airplane wreckage inside the Pentagon structure, again deciding that they must be fake.
** conveniently holding forth the testimony of other, apparently more reliable eyewitnesses, who claim that what hit the Pentagon was something other than a 757.
** conveniently decide that video/photos they have seen that contradict their argument "look fake or doctored".
Even if they found and released a video diary of one of the hijackers, from the point he agreed to do it to the point he's staring out the window microseconds before he crashes into the Pentagon, these people are still going to find a way to discount it as being fake or coerced. Why the f*#& should the government bother releasing any video on the subject when people like you are just going to reject it simply because it doesn't show you what you want it to show you?
This conversation has strayed abnormally far from the original topic that Markadelphia posted. That being said, I have to agree with PL that there is a large percentage of people in this country who believe in conspiracy theories that have no basis in any kind of facts let alone reason. I do, however, disagree with the excuse PL provides for the release of video and other documentation. There is no reason that the American public (the people who pay the government salaries by the way) should not see what exactly transpired on that day from whatever angle or source it comes from. We all felt and are still feeling the shockwaves from that series of events, why not release the damn footage and let people make up their own minds what is relevant and what is not? They are going to anyway. Not releasing it is tantamount to saying "I have a secret and even though it might affect you, you can't know it." That is total bullshit. The government works for us and just like an employee that has been negligent, we, as the employer have the right to know the extent of that negligence. End of story. It is uncontrovertable that this country was not prepared for what happened although they could have been had they READ THE MEMO that said there was a good chance of an attack.
As for who is doing well in this country...I am glad that Crab is doing well, but did you realize Crab that your single male status places you in the position of representing about 12% of the population in the US? That means all of us other morons who have children (who will be supporting and taking care of you in some way shape or form in the future)are the majority. I am one of those people, Markadelphia is one of those people, other people who don't care for GWB are those people and most of them do not think GWB and this administration are doing a good job. You are the minority here and I dare say that perhaps your evaluation of the current situation reflects that minority status. No offense intended, but what is good for you may not be good for others. You certainly can come back with "I don't give a flying f_ck about anyone else," but I would hope that you would think that through because the actions of others DO affect you and your life, or will at some later point.
Are liberals/Democrats acting like victims? I suppose some are. I am not one of those people in the sense that I expect the government to pay my way. I have never asked for money from the government and have been steadily employed since I was about 15...more than 20 years ago. I currently hold 3 jobs, 1 full-time and 2 part-time job. I also have a family that I take care of. My wife has a full-time job. Everyone I know and associate is in a similar situation. Were Crabs comments meant to imply that we are not working hard enough? If that is the case, I beg to differ. Do I feel that the current administration is doing things that I disapprove of and that there is nothing for me to do but bitch about it? Yes. There is nothing I can do about it until election time. Then I will vote my conscience yet again. Will it be for a Republican...maybe, I want to see who is going to run and how well they appear to fit my best interests. Will I vote Democratic...maybe (see last statement).
Markadelphia goes too far sometimes in referencing whole groups of people (such as Republicans or Conservatives). I will not go that far, but I will say without hesitation that the current administration has made poor decisions that do not reflect the America I want to live in particularly. Does that mean I will be packing up and leaving? Maybe, but not right this minute. As an American I reserve the right to bitch about what GWB and Co. are doing.
Some people who dislike GWB do so because they are "crazy" but don't let that confuse you into thinking that ALL people who dislike him are "loony" or do so without cause. For every fact that you have thrown up on this blog that supports GWB, there are other facts that condemn his actions. Whether you choose to believe those other facts or how you interpret those facts is your business. I won't tell you who to support or vote for, all I can tell you is why I didn't and won't vote for people who do not reflect my interests.
To revisit an old topic...what are the good things that are happening in this country and the world...I don't see things being better now than they were when GWB took office. Maybe in a couple of areas, but not on the whole. Terrorism is on the rise, conflicts are escalating in several regions, the ozone is continuing to disappear, global warming is on the verge of gaining wide-scale acceptance because it can no longer be reasonably denied, this country is up to its eyeballs in debt, we are spending more money than we have, social intolarance is up, the countries population is politically and apparently morally divided, gas prices are through the roof, 40 million people do not have adequate medical insurance, lying to the American people has become widely accepted, acknowledged, and dismissed, and we are still largely unprotected from potential terrorist threats (either biological or nuclear). Some of you have more money in your pocketbooks, but you do not have a smaller government and the middle class (which I am squarly a part of) is becoming empoverished while CEO's of companies are making 400% more than the lowest paid workers in their companies (a figure that is twice what it was during the era of the robber barons of the industrial revolution). SOme of these are facts, others are interpretations of those facts. How are things better than they were again?
Tongue-in-cheek, John. I don't know why the government chooses not to release anything and everything that it has or knows about 9/11. Frankly, I think "national security" is very likely a euphemism for "we screwed up". Bottom line (for me) - nobody in any position of authority is going to be eager to release documentation of how they screwed up. It's a fact of life I'm quite comfortable with, no matter how much I believe they "should" be telling us. Regardless, the fact that they don't release everything doesn't provide license to people to start manufacturing explanations, proclaim "prove me wrong", and then start peddling such conjecture as "fact" when no proof, or conveniently discarded proof, is provided. If you're happy with "politics" today working that way, then to each his own. I personally don't see the need for things to work that way, and I honestly don't have the patience for things to work that way.
Add to HMHC's demographic the single and childless female demographic, the DINK WASP demographic, or even just the DINK demographic, which I'm pretty certain are also doing fairly well these days. To that grouping I'm confident you can add a large portion of the "two professional incomes with kids" demographic, of whom I know quite a few that are doing well these days. I also know several couples who have kids, where each parent has a job (teachers, nonetheless), who I would characterize as "doing well". So I would expect that some portion of that demographic should also be added. Not sure how much of the pie-chart of America that conglomerate takes up, but I suspect it's much larger than the originally postulated 12%.
Some of what you say about things being worse is true or, at the very least, probably true. Some of it I think is BS....are there really more conflicts today? More social intolerance? And, according to two recently released studies out of Denmark and Japan, the ozone layer is responding quite nicely to the Montreal Protocol. (Not that GWB had anything to do with that.) In the end, it is fact that things will not be better for everybody under GWB. Heck, the people for whom things are better may not even be American. That may brand him a failure in many eyes, but not so in mine. If for no other reason than the fact that "doing well" and "better" are awfully subjective concepts.
I'm sorry to hear of your plight and that of those around you. If there's anything I can do to help I trust you will let me know. Unfortunately for me, I'm not in demand enough to snag a CEOs salary, or even ambitious enough to snag a VP's, Director's, or Manager's salary. So, in addition to me not making the big $$$, I also have little if any influence. But I'd be happy to put in a good word for you somewhere if that will help.
Mark, again you took my statements to a pretty far reaching conclusion – I never said there wasn’t any corruption here and I never said the US was perfect. All I have to do is look at a globe and I know that things are much worse and governments in other parts of the world are far more corrupt than ours is. Now I’m not saying there isn’t plenty of room for improvement within our government, I guess I am pretty appreciative of what we have here compared to every other country on this planet. You students of history surely know that this country has been through much worse yet we still keep on trucking. There is no other country on this planet that offers more opportunity than the one we currently live in. Each end every one of us are living better than 75% of the rest of the population of this planet. Our government doesn’t owe me anything except the opportunity to better myself.
Don’t lump me in with people who are working harder for less money. I made a full $10k less per year in 2001 (when I bought my home) than I do now. I have no credit card debt either. George Bush’s policies are not destroying my way of life. I think there is a big difference between people thinking this country is heading in the wrong direction (something people have probably thought since 1998) and people thinking that their way of life is being destroyed. That’s a little too dramatic for me.
I say the Dow closed at 11,200 yesterday and that the unemployment rate is 4.7% and those stats are just pushed aside and called a “half truth” while things like “my children will suffer”, “financially ruined the country”, “went to war for corporate profit” and so forth are held up as truth. So tell me, what’s the incentive for researching things? You’ll just call it a “half truth” and move on.
I disagree with the notion that your children, or anyone elses children, will take care of me in the future. Not 100% sure what you meant exactly, but go to a nursing home and you will see nothing but old women – that’s because us men all die off an average of several years before women do. Myself, I eat so much steak and protein that I will probably just keel over from a heart attack one day. If you’re talking about being taken care of via social security payments, I don’t expect social security to be around when I retire because those politicians spend that money each year and without some serious reform the plan will bankrupt itself on it’s own.
I have a life plan for myself and it is self made – I have not been programmed to believe that I have to find a wife and have kids to be happy. Anymore, having a wife and kids doesn’t necessarily give one access to happiness. Nowadays, marriage and children seem to bring access to celibacy, nonstop worry, and financial hardship for many people. I define myself by my own terms, not those of my friends, parents, society, co-workers, mtv, or anyone else for that matter. I don’t live my life by some puritan morality that mainstream culture dictates. This is my life, I own it. I am in control. If people who have children combined with people who think GWB is doing a lousy job are the majority and if all of the items in your last paragraph happen to be true, well, like you said, we have elections. Any administrations "reign" will last either 4 or 8 years and will be followed by a peaceful transfer of power to the next elected administration. I would never go so far as to say that I don’t care about anyone else but as long as everyone in this country has access to education and the job market, that’s all they are guaranteed.
No, I didn’t imply you, or anyone else for that matter, isn’t working hard enough but I could search the home of every person out there who says “things are tough right now” and I would find cell phones, home computers, 576 cable channels, 2 vehicles (1 probably being a gas-guzzler), numerous DVD’s, camcorders, boats, and a host of other high tech toys that are considerd “luxuries” most everywhere else on this planet.
If you all think more can be done in a number of areas, I don't disagree. I just don't think things are as bleak as people make them out to be.
Appreciate everything, expect nothing.
I started twice before to write something here, but gave up. I don't like wading into hip-deep muck. But here goes...
Mark, when you employ the same tactics of slander and recrimination that guys like Rush Limbaugh use, you're just going to get it back with both barrels. Cussing them out isn't going to help you convince them of anything. Invective rarely elicits reasoned response.
I consider myself to be a moderate -- I haven't really changed my political views in thirty years. I used to be a Republican. I voted for guys like John Anderson, Arnie Carlson and Dave Durenberger.
In the past thirty years the national dialog has descended into all-out warfare, with the right becoming more and more vicious. Despite what the right says, the Democrats just don't play the hate game the way they do. Democrats, in general, just aren't that self-delusional or hypocritcal, or willing to flat-out lie. They don't have the win-at-all-costs, slash-and-burn, take-no-prisoners attitude that the right does. (And of course, that's why the right thinks they don't deserve to rule -- they don't have what it takes!)
The Democrats have pretty much stayed the same since Reagan's time, while the Republicans have become increasingly mendacious and opportunistic, as evidenced by the way they win elections, run campaigns, craft legislation, lobby Congress, execute wars, react to hurricanes, etc.
During Reagan's administration the Republican party started to fall under the thrall of a small cabal of conservative religious ideologues, gun advocates and billionaire businessmen. Any Republicans who don't cave into the demands of the anti-abortion and no-taxes-for-the-rich special interest groups are told their campaigns will be sabotaged. Those who knuckle under are richly rewarded by Tom DeLay's kith and kin.
Against this backdrop, it is glaringly obvious that Jesus would not be a Republican. Jesus would compare the Republican party to the Pharisees. Jesus would look at Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich and George Bush and condemn them as thieves, hypocrites and murderers.
Jesus was about turning the other cheek, forgiveness, compassion and mercy. The Republican party is the self-proclaimed party of revenge and retribution.
Jesus would have opposed the death penalty. Jesus would have condemned the invasion of Iraq (as the pope did). Jesus would have condemned Republican attempts to repeal the estate tax. Jesus would insist that we pull out of Iraq immediately and stop the killing. Jesus would turn water to wine for illegal immigrants toiling in hot, dry American fields.
There's simply no question that Jesus would take these stands. None whatsoever. There's no possibility of argument. At all.
Why? Jesus was not a politician, and he could take unrealistic positions on moral grounds that someone in charge of a country simply cannot. Jesus could afford to be morally right all the time, because he had no responsibility for anything except the salvation of his followers' immortal souls.
But Republicans would demean Jesus's position on war, calling it cowardly and craven. They would accuse Jesus of cutting and running. They would call Jesus naive and foolish. When Jesus rendered aid to illegal immigrants Republicans would arrest him and throw him into prison, where the thugs that run the place would rape and murder Jesus because he refused to be their bitch.
So it makes we wonder how these people can call themselves Christians -- these people who clamor for revenge for 9/11, who demand the execution of journalists who publish articles about how the Bush administration has broken the law, who cheer when Israel bombs civilians in Lebanon.
All that said, Jesus would not be a Democrat either. Jesus would walk away from both parties. Jesus would not even waste his time voting. He would just wander around trying to convince people to be kind and generous, and praise His Father.
Leave it to BLK to bring things back to the original point of my post which was Greg Boyd being a person who is actually following the teachings of Christ and refuses to be sucked into politics.
I couldn't agree with you more about the current Republican leadership. I guess my descent into "slander and recrmination" comes from what is quite possibly the most enormous amount of frustration I have ever felt in my life. I mean, I am sitting here looking at what is happening in our country...the actions our leadership has taken and I guess I don't really see how there is any room for any other point of view.
It is quite simply what is happening...just as people put one foot in front of the other to walk....and for people to think any other way is just plain....confusing.
I know I'm going to catch hell for this (literally and figuratively speaking) but if blk's characterization of Jesus is correct - and notice I say "if", since I don't know why his characterization can be considered more accurate than anybody else's - then I'm glad Jesus isn't a citizen in this country. The message he's selling I'm not buying.
Why is that exactly?
Also, more on BLK's comments...I think the cabal you refer to can be traced back to LBJ and Texas oil and possibly even further...
Post a Comment