I have decided, in light of the shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, to postpone my series on presidential candidates. It just doesn't seem appropriate.I am still trying to get my head around what happened yesterday and how horrible it was. I am going to try to post some thoughts everyday and let's start a discussion in comments and see what happens.
My initial thoughts: this was a failure on just about every level you can think of in education. It was a failure of this university's culture to identify the young man who committed these crimes as needing help. It was a failure of security. It was a failure in response on the part of law enforcement authorities.
And now the reaction comes and that is a failure, too. The gun debate, of course, comes up again with all the typical cast of characters. No one wants to explore the real issue: why is our country so violent?
Your comments?
20 comments:
We are violent because people found a way to make money on increasing excitment and fear. The more they make, the more they want, so violence is cultivated in our behaviour from video games to spectacular news coverage, to Rap stars make it cool...
All about money, like everything.
Have to get in a word on gun laws though. This NON citizen exchange student Friday legally bought a semiautomatic gun.
I though our mighty and resolute "War President" told us we were at "Orange Alert"? So, during a "War on Terror" you can walk into one of our gun stores and legally buy a gun, just off a plane from another country? Thanks for keeping us so safe Mr. President.
You got that right, why are we so violent? Why does a society need guns and asault rifles for recreation? The issues here in the States and outside the states are related to one simple thing,the amount of guns and arms we create and provide for the world to use.
I'm always surprised at how quick people are to place the blame on others when, they really have no clue (or experience) in regards to what they are complaining about.
With that said, consider this: What if all of those students were carrying guns? How many of them would be dead? If the prick that did the shootings knew they were all armed, would he have even considered the shootings?
I agree, a NON citizen should not be allowed to purchase a gun. But then all the Lefties are going to complain when his house gets broken into and the NON citizen is beaten to death with the baseball bat he is forced to use to defend his house.
Here is my thought on the Permit to Carry a Firearm in MN. Some say they don't like that it is my right to legally carry a firearm. What gives them the right to allow me to be a victum if a scenario like VA happens here? :)
Pete Black
How exactly do you think this particular bastard profited financially from this outrage?
Ban guns from non-citizens? No problem with that here.
1st anonymous, yeah, it is so easy to get a gun in this country. We can easily supply terrorists with whatever they need. Please pick a name the next time you post.
2nd Anonymous, yep. So true.Please pick a name the next time you post.
Pete, here is a scenario for you. OK, so let's say that everyone can carry a gun anywhere. And just to make it simple, let's make it any gun, anywhere, anytime. Would you feel safer? Would you feel like your rights were now full granted?
Now suppose you are a student, you are in class, you have your gun, and shots are being fired in another room. You get your gun out and go investigate. You walk in and see five students with guns. Who is the bad guy? Quick, you only have one second to decide!
I believe in this mythical world I have created where all guns are fine anywhere we still miss the point. Why did this guy go and kill everyone? Why? Saying he was "crazy" oversimplifies it. There must have been warning signs and NO ONE did anything. Talk about a complete lack of prevention. Talk about a complete failure on this institution to let someone as mentally disturbed as this to slip through the cracks...a complete educational and sociological failure. Do any of you honestly think that someone who has this many problems is going to "stop and think twice" because every other student has a gun?
It took only a matter of hours for gun control advocates to use the shootings as evidence of the need for stricter firearm controls, and for 2nd Amendment advocates to argue that if the school hadn't been a "gun-free zone," the killer might have been stopped sooner. (I read today that just a few weeks ago, the Virginia legislature voted down a proposal to allow college faculty and students to carry firearms, a decision that was hailed by a spokesman for Virginia Tech as maintaining the school's safe environment.)
At the same time, and equally predictably, others decry the efforts by both sides to "politicize" the shootings by using them as fodder for arguments on either side of the firearms debate.
In general, there is nothing wrong with "politicizing" an issue. This is a democracy, and politics is the process we use to resolve conflicts. Important issues of legitimate public concern should be "politicized." When a political group says that an issue shouldn't be "politicized," it generally means that they are on the losing side of the political argument.
Nor is there anything wrong with using a tragedy to support a political argument; it happens all the time IMO. Do you remember, when the Bush administration was being criticized for its allegedly inadequate response to Hurricane Katrina, lots of people saying that the event shouldn't be politicized? I don't.
I can understand, too, why some advocates on both sides of the gun issue are in a hurry to make their points: the lesson can be drawn most effectively when the events are fresh; after a few days, public attention will move on to something else.
Still, I do think that the rush to draw gun-control conclusions from the Virginia Tech murders is unfortunate, for two reasons. First, it is unseemly. While this or any other tragedy can be a legitimate topic of political discussion, having that discussion while the bodies are still being carried out of the building conveys an impression of trying to capitalize on the emotion of the moment. Second, we don't know all the facts of this case yet.
With regards to preventing this, I don't think anyone could have prevented this. Taking drastic action toward the shooter based on poems he wrote as well as a disturbing play he wrote about sure sounds like the thought police to me and you know free speech advocates would come out in droves as well as the ACLU.
It’s takes a special kind of person to take a senseless act of evil and twist it around to blame the US President. ‘Anonymous’ is such a person.
I don’t think this is a pure gun control issue. This isn’t some high powered rifle or an automatic weapon. And even if there was a waiting period for a back ground check (which there should be), this kid would have come back with a clean record from what we know now. And even if students were allowed to carry firearms, in such a normally crime-free environment, who would have carried one to class in the first place?
Although blame for this outrage rests solely on the killer, blame for the lack of protection comes to rest on the campus police force. Campus security has morphed into a defacto ‘police force’, redundantly occupying themselves with many of the day to day duties of the local police force. This approach makes little sense. Colleges do not have the same needs as cities; their needs are specialized. Instead of a police mindset devoted to protecting the community from crime and policing traffic, campus police would do better to develop a security mindset devoted to controlling access. You get frisked going into a large concert. Why should an equally vulnerable audience like a large campus classroom be any less secure?
Good discussion so far but Markadelphia, please stop talking about things you know nothing about.
TRAINING will tell you that you don't go investigate with your gun out. Typically in a situation as such, you hunker down, and if he enters YOUR classroom, you make that decision then.
It's a situational thing, they teach us that in Concealed Carry License training you have to consider the totality of circumstances.
HF,
Alright, fine. I hunker down. Someone comes into the classroom with a gun. Do I wait and see if he starts shooting? Or do I ask him if he is the shooter?
My point that I was trying to make above was that if everyone has guns, how can we tell who the rampager is? And, how is training from state to state going to differ? Were you trained in the same way that police officers are trained? To spot the bad guy?
The conceal and carry law we have here did not raise nor did it lower the level of violence in our state. So, both sides in the gun debate lost which I think is quite fitting actually because neither side has an answer...they only further the problem.
Hey Just Dave, I admit this was the wrong platform to take a dig at Bush. However, my whole comment was about modern culture, and media's input. Prior to this story, the news was full of Bush needing a push in Iraq because he claims to be the guy to make the USA safer. Well, containers are only checked about 5% coming into the country, the 911 report (bipartisian) was ignored, etc. I personally don't feel safer, I feel less safe from his polidies. Destabilizing the already unstable mideast was a BAD idea, and he admits to not thinking about where Bin Laden is...I find him indefensible, and like to bring it up whenever I can. Doesn't mean every chance should be used. For that I will apologize, but it's nice to know I am "special" - thanks!
As for the issue at hand, no, no one made any money on this deal. But, we are hardly the kinder, gentler America Bush Sr imagined. Money has driven making everything sensational. Would this most recent loon have gone in with TWO guns instead of one had he not been over exposed, as we all are, to excessive violence because it makes money producing movies and games? I can't say for certain, but am not happy with the growing Rambo mentality. And Bush IS relevant in that discussion with his cowboy antics.
There will be over reaction to this in gun laws being ntroduced. I only say overreaction, as the laws won't do anything. What this guy did was already illegal! However, even though it turns out he DID have a green card, I feel strongly people should be full citizens to buy a gun here. The 2nd Ammendment says nothing about offering easy gun ownership to anyone on our shores. Also, having been so young and recently under mental observation/treatment, that should have been enough to force him to buy those guns on the street, and not in a shop. He still may have got them, but the time and effort involved may have been enough for someone to notice in time.
But...but...but...
I stand by my remarks and offer up as proof your latest post. Can't you look at an issue for the sake of that issue w/o going off on a tangent against Iraq?
One reason this post gets so bogged down is that staying on point is very difficult for a lot of people. I could talk about how I love the Easter Bunny and someone would come back with, "yeah, well, Halibruton, Haliburton, Bush is the devil! So there."
I've had the training both from a public service position and the Permit to Carry classes. First, to Mark and your response: I'd say the bad guy was the one that everyone is pointing their gun at. :)
The response to hunker down really is the best route. There are four things that need to happen in order for a Permit to Carry holder is justified in a shooting.
1. You need to be an unwilling participant. So going to look for the dude is not an option.
2. The level of force must be justified. ie, no shooting anyone that just punched you in the face.
3. It must be your only option, and retreating is not possible.
4. You must be in fear of death or great bodily harm.
If any of those are missing, the permit carrier is really introuble. And will probably be introuble even if all four requirements are met.
Mark, no comment on what gives you the right to allow me to be a possible victum?
Pete Black
Pete,
I can see your point and fundamentally I have no problem with conceal and carry. But what you saying is that you now have a problem with places like VT that ban guns. That is their choice and their right NOT to allow guns. We see the signs up all around town that say that such and such a place bans guns. OK, so now they don't have the right to do that? If you are a true conservative, then you have to champion their rights as well.
Also, the conceal and carry law did not increase or decrease violence so both sides in the issue were wrong, which I think is quite funny actually, because at the end of the day, if we really want to reduce violence in this country we have to forget about guns and look at the fundamental failures of our culture.
Cho was failed by his parents, his community, his schools, and his government. I am not trying to take away any responsibility from him but he is a product of our culture and if you want things like this to be miniminalized, you need to decided how YOU are going to improve that culture. We will never fully vanquish the nutters of the world. Arming yourself against them is only one small part of the solution.
Mark, you flirt with insanity, but luckily came back down to earth at the end.
...all this on failures of our culture etc. One has to admit that there simply are bad/evil people in the world. You have no problem calling GW evil, how about pukes like this Cho? Sometimes someone is not failed by their family, gov't & culture but is a nutter nonetheless. At least you come back at the end and state the reality, that the world will always have nutters and we must learn how to best reduce and/or deal with their impact.
Dave,
Look at this way. Cho is born with a genetic disorder, autism. His father abuses him, most likely physically and probably sexually. He starts to withdraw. When he is in school, kids make fun of him because he "acts weird." No one wants to help him in his community because he is strange. He is Korean, which is also another notch against him. His rage begins to build but all the authority in his life that was supposed to help him has failed him. Who does he turn to? Where does he go?
Our educational system is filled with lazy people so he just slides by unnoticed. A few people at Virgina Tech notice but nothing happens because the system is flawed. He has been shaped from day one to be fucked up and so he is a puke?
It's ALL his fault?
So, why don't you just come out and say it. We, as a society failed him. Our culture is sick. It's hyper competative, mean-spirited, cruel and exclusive. Unchecked, easy pornography, violent images, failing education, weak government, big drugs(see next blog), easy guns. Somehow, out hedonistic ways contributed to 30+ lives lost. In other words, in a way, I, pulled the trigger because I, as part of this crappy society, have done nothing to promote societal change. Oh, and George W., I almost forgot.
One dude, with the right to conceal and carry, could have ended the boy's misery, and saved many lives. All else is prattle. If the bad guys can get guns, then, the good guys should get guns. Conceal and carry advocates win the day. I bet the former German students would agree.
As for the question of whether socially we are in the shitter?, the veiled assumption here is actually, "look how crappy our BUSH society is," isn't it. I would like to point out that in 1966 (I was 1), Charles Whitman killed 14 in Texas, during the Johnson presidency. In 1984(I was 19), James Huberty took out 21 fatties waiting for a Big Mac, during the Reagan regime. Tim McVie, circa 97? - one man, one bomb - more effective than guns but still mass murder - oh, and that was Clinton.
Nobody failed nobody. Nobody is to blame. If anything, this country is suffering from "who's to blame-itis." Stop trying to politicize a tragic situation where one kid decided to join a long list of kooks who thought it would be cool to take people with him on his journey to oblivion, while justifying it with drivel about all the people who kicked him around. I'm not buying it.
So, you realize that by saying all of this that you are basically inviting it all to happen over and over again. Having a gun to defend yourself is one solution...there are others and you have to look at his family, friends, his community, his school...everyone that contributed to this....to get others.
One gun is not the answer.
Nature, nurture?
Was I born gay, or was I raised gay.
Was I born to kill, or was I raised to kill?
From what I read, people had been trying to get through to this guy his whole life. To look at him is to see how his world could beat him down. We all carry the same tough story, don't we? Is anyone immune? - yet, I feel no need to spill blood. I might go on to say that I agree with some of his rants; frustrations with the emerging class state, spoiled youth, unchecked media. I also agree that we have a more violent society, a more sexual society, a more self-centered society and a less community based society. Are we going in the right direction? No. Is this issue "worse" now than in 1966? 1984? 1997? No, - and I might add that what some people view as worse, others view as progress.
The difference between me, and him, is that my life experience tightened my check valve, toughened me up. His did not. Bad equipment - one of nature's imperfections.
And yes, yes, guns are bad. We all know that. The founding fathers didn't intend every household to to brandish an uzi, AK, or Glock 9 for that matter, to fight the Brits. To me it's just one of those things where it's always the drowning man who wishes he had a life jacket. One janitor with a gun - one teacher - one student - one RA. For this guy - one gun, was truly the answer. 30 lives? It seems to get worse the more it sinks in doesn't it?
Oh, and no, I am not "basically inviting it to happen all over again." The fact is Mark, IT WILL, happen . . . all . . . over. . . again. It is not up to me, you, Bush, Cheany, the schools, unless . . . when I am sitting there enjoying a meal with my wife and daughters, and a mad man gets up to kill because he is upset how his lobster tastes, I can pull out MY Glock 2000 special with the chrome spinners and the 12 inch barrell, and put the entire clip into his ear - then, I guess, it WILL be up to me. Hey, saves him the last "cowards bullet." If you want, I could pause a second if you and your family are in the booth next to me - wouldn't dare ask you to give in to your principles.
Well we know what the end point is with guns available...what would the end point have been if there were no guns available? You tell me.
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