Contributors

Monday, April 02, 2012

Messing with the Constitution for Partisan Gain

Minnesota is one of several states that either has or is enacting voter ID laws, all pushed exclusively by Republicans. These require that you have a current picture ID, such as a driver's license, in order to vote. Some states accept other forms of ID, such as a gun license, but disallow other forms of identification with pictures, such as student IDs.

Proponents of such laws, exclusively Republicans, claim that there's an epidemic of voter fraud. During the Bush administration Karl Rove and Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez demanded that US attorneys push the prosecution of these sorts of cases. The episode resulted in both Rove's and Gonzalez's resignations.

In 2010 the house and senate in Minnesota were won by Republicans, but a Democrat was elected governor. To get around a certain veto of voter ID legislation, the Republicans are trying to add a constitutional amendment to require photo IDs at the polling place.

This is a spectacularly stupid idea, as it's always a bad policy to monkey with the constitution for partisan hot-button issues, as well as clutter the constitution with picayune details of law enforcement that will certainly change as technology improves in the future. And it's completely unnecessary, because it's already illegal to commit voter fraud.

The ACLU, which opposes the amendment on the basis that  it's a form of poll tax because it would deny poorer citizens the basic right to vote if they don't drive or have a photo ID, challenged proponents of the law to find cases of voter fraud that would have been stopped by picture IDs at the polls. So far none of the submissions have panned out. The supposed strongest case submitted involved a mother who used an absentee ballot to vote in her daughter's name, while the daughter voted at her school. But no IDs are checked when you fill out an absentee ballot--that's the whole point of absentee ballots.

Basically, the number of people who commit voter fraud in Minnesota by walking into a polling place and claim to be someone who they're not is zero. Think about it: how many people have the gall to lie to an election judge's face, sign the roster with someone else's signature and face a felony charge? How will they know that the person they're pretending to be hasn't already voted? How can they know that the election judge won't know that person? In most jurisdictions, election judges are older people from the community who've worked at the polls for years if not decades. They pretty much know everyone who votes. If someone's trying to impersonate a dead man, the election judge may well have attended his funeral.

In Minnesota, election judges have the responsibility to challenge suspected fraudulent voters. Under certain circumstances the roster at the polling place will already have a notation requiring that the election judge check the voter's ID. If they don't have ID there's already a form to fill out and several questions to answer and they fill out a provisional ballot instead of a regular one. Similar rules apply to people who register to vote at the polls.

To prevent further skulduggery, critical processes performed by election judges are required to have judges from two different parties. Such activities include initializing voting machines, signing the totals at the end of the day, taking results to city hall, assisting voters who need help filling out their ballots, etc.


Now some of you will say, "Wait a minute. If you've got an inside man at the polling place, you can commit fraud on a massive scale." And, yes, that's true. But photo ID does absolutely nothing to prevent that, and would perhaps make it easier because of the false sense of security that photo ID provides.

Furthermore, any kind of organized and sophisticated voter fraud scheme involving impersonation of individuals wouldn't be slowed down by photo ID; fake IDs are ubiquitous. How could an election judge possibly tell a valid license from a good fake? It's trivial for teenagers to get forged IDs to buy booze and get into clubs. All you really need to forge drivers licenses is a supply of blank cards, a computer, a printer and a laminator. You can do it all in the back of a van outside the polling place.


The current system in Minnesota has worked well for decades, and was improved after the close contest between Franken and Coleman 2008. Suggestions Democrats made in reaction to voter ID would actually provide more security than the ID would. It would put the burden on the state to validate the voter's identity by giving the election judge a picture of the voter with an electronic roster. A person registering at the poll would have their picture taken, which would be a solid deterrent against those attempting fraud. The Republican constitutional end-run around the governor smells like voter suppression and an attempt to avenge Coleman's loss.

To be sure, significant voter fraud has taken place in other states, and I have no doubt that a small amount of voter fraud is taking place in Minnesota. But not by people impersonating others at the polls, and it wouldn't be stopped by the voter ID amendment. Real electoral fraud involves absentee ballots and voting in the wrong jurisdiction or in multiple jurisdictions, most often by people who think they have the right to vote everywhere they own property. People like, say, Ann Coulter, who has had brushes with the law because she voted in Connecticut while being registered to vote in New York.

The biggest potential for voter fraud in Minnesota is not at the polls, but with absentee ballots. These are most often used by the elderly (who move to warmer climes in the fall or are too infirm to vote in person), military personnel, people who travel extensively and students. Because there is no photo ID requirement whatsoever for absentee ballots and no one to check that ID, there's no way to know who filled out an absentee ballot. There's a signature check, but in most jurisdictions that's against the form you filled out to request the absentee ballot in the first place. And who's to say the actual voter filled that form out, or that the people who check those forms actually are competent at comparing signatures?

There are likely hundreds of thousands of elderly Americans who are no longer mentally competent whose children or nursing home attendants are voting two or more times by filling out absentee ballots with their own choices. And there probably thousands of students whose parents are voting twice, and thousands of military personnel whose spouses are voting twice. And thousands of retirees and people who own vacation homes who are voting in multiple jurisdictions.

In short, Republicans are locking a technical solution into the constitution to fix problems that don't exist, wasting taxpayer money and creating needless bureaucratic hurdles for people who don't drive or are too poor to afford a car. They are trying to deny the rights of the poor by pretending to prevent an unlikely crime by a few, all the while blithely ignoring the real potential for rampant fraud by the many with absentee ballots.

To really stop absentee ballot, voter impersonation and dead-man voter fraud, we would need a nationwide computer network that linked all jurisdictions, and we would need to assign a unique voter ID to each person, and we would need to ensure that each person only had one ID, and we would need a national registry of all births and deaths based on that ID. Most Republicans would claim this is government overreach and Big Brotherism at its worst. And then we'd have to ensure that this computer network couldn't be scammed by hackers and fraudsters trying to manipulate election results from the top down.

Because that's the real threat: why commit electoral fraud by impersonating people one at a time, when you can buy elections wholesale by controlling the private companies who run the computers that count the votes?

50 comments:

juris imprudent said...

I bet you don't give a second thought to whipping out ID to get on a plane.

rld said...

You can bet your ass that all those poor people can come up with ID if they needed a check cashed.

Stu Pidasso said...

Where is the outrage at the downtrodden (with no ID) who are unable to:

buy beer
buy cigs
cash a check
get into a casino
open a bank account
open a PO Box
enter a government building (in some locales)
rent a home
get married
use a credit card
apply for a bank loan

etc...

I demand riots unless the un-ID'd poor get relief from the fatcat republicans who make them use identification.

rld said...

Lefties fight real hard to protect the current system of no having to show an ID, so I'm not buying the "Well, it just doesn't happen that often" argument. You all benefit from the current system, which is why you fight hard to protect it.

Serial Thrilla said...

You guys won't be laughing so hard when Cletus the slack jawed yokel tries to vote GOP and can't when he has no ID. This will be another law that will come back and bite you in the ass when Texas or Missouri goes blue somewhere down the line.

Democrats want everyone to vote without an ID because they look out for the interests of others which, I know, is so fucking evil your heads are probably exploding by now.

Haplo9 said...

>because they look out for the interests of others which, I know, is so fucking evil your heads are probably exploding by now.

Aww, how cute. Another rube identifies as a believer in team good vs team evil. And of course, you're on team good - right Serial? That's a good boy.

I don't read Krauthammer much, but boy was he right with this one:

"To understand the workings of American politics, you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil."

Serial Thrilla said...

I think conservatives are stupid, not evil, an continually vote against their best interests. Watch what happens in November. You'll get lower voter turnout in the states with Voter ID laws for both Democrats and Republicans. What a fantasy to think that all Republicans have photo IDs.

juris imprudent said...

You guys won't be laughing so hard when Cletus the slack jawed yokel tries to vote GOP and can't when he has no ID.

Au contraire Cletus' subgenius cousin.

This will be another law that will come back and bite you in the ass when Texas or Missouri goes blue somewhere down the line.

Why? Does Democratic governance invalidate ID based on partisan affiliation?

As M is so fond of pointing out about the right-wing - this is faux outrage.

Haplo9 said...

>I think conservatives are stupid

Oh I'm sorry, so its team good vs team stupid, is that it? Anything to give you that morally superior feeling.

>an continually vote against their best interests.

How surprising! Another lefty who knows whats in peoples best interest better than they do. Must be all that reflection that you and Mark do, eh? I'll never understand where Mark and whoever else does this gets the unmitigated hubris to say things like this. Curious - do you actually tell people, "You don't know whats good for you as well as I do" in person? Or only on the internet?

6Kings said...

Democrats want everyone to vote without an ID because they look out for the interests of others..

Classic!! By the way, Voter Fraud investigations of democraps are at least 100-1 versus others. Since only US citizens are allowed to vote, I have a hard time understanding why this is such an issue...unless you lean left and want foreigners and dead voting for your guy. I guess that is the only way to get elected on a FAIL platform.

Mark Ward said...

As M is so fond of pointing out about the right-wing - this is faux outrage.

To a certain extent, I agree with this. Serial is right in pointing out that, in the end, Voter ID laws will have the same negative effect on Republican voters as they do on Democratic voters. If you look at the states where the laws are in place, you can see that this will be the case. As I have shown previously, it's the red states that have the most poverty and are likely to have citizens without photo ID.

I'll never understand where Mark and whoever else does this gets the unmitigated hubris to say things like this.

That's because it's not hubris. It's logic. As we saw in the Pelosi video, people in the poorest parts of the country vote for people who want to cut off their food stamps. That's not an issue of hubris, that's trying to communicate logic. I know it all comes down to the fact that they view liberals as Satan but simply relating facts doesn't equal hubris.

Voter Fraud investigations of democraps are at least 100-1 versus others.

Key word here being "investigations." Please list all the incidents of voter fraud (documented and charged) in the last 30 years. No right wing blogs for sources. The GOP has done a most excellent job of creating investigations and then using them to say "Guilty" without any sort of trial. People are believing it so why not?

In the end, I look at all of this as desperation. The GOP knows that their base is maxed out and, in fact, shrinking. It's only a matter of time and even these games won't work anymore. Time to change, folks, and embrace those funny looking people with weird last names. Who knows? Some of them might be easily turned to Randian, small government fantasies.

juris imprudent said...

If you look at the states where the laws are in place, you can see that this will be the case.

Which states have implemented this law and conducted an election under it? I thought everywhere it has been attempted the Dems/Left have run to court to block it.

Mark Ward said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

Read the whole section as there are some notes with links about voter fraud.

juris imprudent said...

Okay, so 19 states have no ID requirement. A goodly number of the states with the law have yet to conduct an election using it.

And apparently all of the other things you need an ID for in life, people either are also deprived of - or there is no real issue here (as they have ID for those purposes).

Faux outrage from the left indeed!

BTW, I also oppose foreign-language ballots, as it is still a requirement for naturalization to demonstrate a minimal capability in English.

Mark Ward said...

I'd agree with you there. I learned and spoke French when I lived in Paris. I call that respect for the country in which you live. I'm not too worried, though. English will eventually be the language of Earth. It's only a matter of time.

Regarding voter ID, I think we'll get a very good indication of how this will play out in this election. Obviously, Pennsylvania will be the one to watch. I think all those voters in the middle of the state (the Alabama part, according to James Carville) are going to have just as tough of a time voting as the inner city poor.

I also think this whole Voter ID thing is going to backfire on the GOP. Everyone will now be motivated more than ever to get their ID and vote. Democrats will organize sign ups for IDs and help people get them. Once they do, the GOP won't have anything to gripe about because they passed the fucking law! In the end, it's just going to add more voters to the Dem rolls.

Haplo9 said...

>who want to cut off their food stamps.

Oh - do you have a link for that? Or are you just doing your little redefine words how you want thing? (You know, kind of like how when someone wants you to pay for something they want, and you say no, you're making war on them, or reducing their access to that thing. Sandra Fluke told me.)

>That's not an issue of hubris, that's trying to communicate logic.

Oh, see, that's not quite what I meant. I know where you've arrived, such that you're in this bubble where you just can't comprehend that any ideology other than your own might be driven by something other than lack of facts, fox news, or the desire to bring back slavery. You've amply demonstrated that. And I might even see how you managed to get there. After all, I was young once, and thought Bill Clinton was a wonderful human being, that problems were almost always caused by some nefarious villian who need only be identified, and that people who didn't see things my way were probably either dumb or evil. What I don't get is how you managed to stay there. Sooner or later you had to have noticed that different people prioritize political concepts differently than you.. right? Put another way - is it really plausible that the 50 or so million people who didn't vote the same way as you all fall into one of two categories: rich people who want to keep the gravy train going, and people who just aren't as smart or reflective or moral as good ol Mark, who's primary skill consists of listening to himself talk? Haven't you ever noticed, as we all eventually have to, that none of us are as smart, perceptive, or correct as much as we might like? It's just mind boggling to me that you could reach the age of 35 or 40 or whatever you are and still think that you know whats in other peoples interests better than they do, and that the reason you do is because your logic or reasoning is just so amazingly better than them. (As opposed to them simply valuing things differently than you.) All 50 million of them. I'm afraid hubris is the correct explanation Mark. And Serial, I dunno, I'm curious about you too, unless you're in college still. Then it makes sense.

Mark Ward said...

Oh - do you have a link for that? Or are you just doing your little redefine words how you want thing?

http://budget.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Pathtoprosperity2013.pdf

pg. 39. And from the author.

"The 1996 welfare reform was very successful in getting toward an upward-mobile society, in getting people off of dependency and on to lives of self-sufficiency.

We propose welfare reform, round 2. We don't want to turn the safety net into a hammock that lulls able-bodied people ... into complacency and dependence."

such that you're in this bubble where you just can't comprehend that any ideology other than your own might be driven by something other than lack of facts, fox news, or the desire to bring back slavery.

Bubble...amusing...nice try, though:)

that problems were almost always caused by some nefarious villian who need only be identified, and that people who didn't see things my way were probably either dumb or evil.

I don't think either of those things but don't YOU view liberals and progressives as nefarious villains and/or dumb?

It's just mind boggling to me that you could reach the age of 35 or 40 or whatever you are and still think that you know whats in other peoples interests better than they do,

I'm 45 and it's not me that thinks it. It's reality.

As the Pelosi video clearly showed, it's faith that drives many to vote GOP. Have you ever considered, Hap, where the Republicans would be without the faith based voters? They vote against the Democrats because they are viewed as being not Christian enough...or not at all.

One would think that these folks would vote for the Democrats who continually vote to maintain these programs and whose tax dollars in blue states support them. But they don't. It's simply not logically based in reality.

Even more ridiculous is the fact that these programs aren't the problem and are a mere drop in the bucket compared to defense, medicare, and social security.

At this point, I'm wondering if it's possible for you to not do the Rove anymore. Time and again, you attack me with what is, in fact, your greatest weaknesses. Your whole paragraph is one long description of why 50 million people don't vote in their best interests! And that's doubly amusing because you thought of it which means that more or less torpedoes your accusation of hubris!

Haplo9 said...

>http://budget.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Pathtoprosperity2013.pdf

So.. You're lying. Or you're being dishonst. You pick. Nowhere in that document is it suggested that the food stamp program should be ended. It does suggest, on page 39, that food stamps should be ended for people that are defrauding the program. Are you seriously arguing that ending fraud in the food stamp program would be a bad thing? Maybe for the people defrauding it, I guess, but I would have to bet that those people that are defrauding it are already voting to keep it going, don't you think?

>I don't think either of those things but don't YOU view liberals and progressives as nefarious villains and/or dumb?

As a matter of fact, no. Most of my disagreements with liberals really come down to a couple of things - they think the Constitution is more permissive than I do, and/or they think government program x is more effective than I do. Which are things that reasonable people can disagree on, as I've been pointing out to you. However, I've interacted with you enough to conclude that you're just dumb. At least, I can't come up with any other explanation for the unique combination of arrogance and ignorance you display.

As to the quote you gave.. So? I think we're back in your bubble here. Are you really unable to conceive of the idea that welfare programs are not an unmitigated social good, and that more of them is not always better?

Haplo9 said...

>Have you ever considered, Hap, where the Republicans would be without the faith based voters?

No. I don't care. Have you ever considered where Democrats would be if they could no longer convince black Americans that Republicans are trying to bring back Jim Crow?

>They vote against the Democrats because they are viewed as being not Christian enough...or not at all.

I'm sure that's probably true for some evangelical voters. What about those that don't?

>One would think that these folks would vote for the Democrats who continually vote to maintain these programs and whose tax dollars in blue states support them.

You do realize that "red" states have quite a few Democratic voters in them, and its entirely possible that those recipients of tax dollars already are voting for politicians who vote to maintain those programs.. right? The only analysis I've seen on this subject says that red states take in more tax dollars than blue states. Seems like a pretty meaningless claim unless you break it down on which groups of people are getting how much money and why. Have you seen such a study, or are you just regugitating the good ol "red states suck tax money!" line?

>Time and again, you attack me with what is, in fact, your greatest weaknesses.

Honestly, I've never quite understood this particular avoidance strategy of yours. My weakness is pointing out that you have placed yourself into a bubble that causes you to reach absurd conclusions about the sheer awesomeness of your own politics? Uhm.. ok.

Haplo9 said...

>Your whole paragraph is one long description of why 50 million people don't vote in their best interests!

Again, huh? Don't understand a lick of that. Aside from the amazement that you seem to be conceding that you really do, in fact, think that 50 million people just can't figure out their best interest as well as you can.

>And that's doubly amusing because you thought of it which means that more or less torpedoes your accusation of hubris!

Yep, completely lost.

You know, I'm going to write some true/false statements, and I'd like you to say whether they are true or false. The reason, honestly, is because I find this little god complex thing you've got going on to be amazing, and I still can't quite believe it.

True or false: Most, if not all, of the voters who voted against Obama in the last presidential election voted against him because of one or more of the following:
a. they aren't well enough informed about how good Democratic policies are for them.
b. they are racist
c. they are rich people trying to keep the train rolling

True or false: Most, if not all of the voters who voted against Obama in the last election do not understand what is in their best interests in the matters on which they vote.

True or false: Mark understands, better than most if not all of the voters who voted against Obama in the last election, what is in their best interests.

If the answer to the previous one is true:
True or false: Mark understands their interests better than they do because of one or more of the following:
a. he is better informed than they are about political matters, and the best ways to run a government
b. he is more intelligent than they are
c. he has thought really hard about whats in their best interests and believes that they haven't thought as hard about it

I breathlessly await your answers.

juris imprudent said...

They vote against the Democrats because they are viewed as being not Christian enough...or not at all.

Oh, so the Democrats have hundreds of agnostics and atheists in office? Or is it all Jews, Hindus and Muslims?

What a fucking joke you are M. No one gets elected by either party without convincing the voting public that they believe in the same god.

Mark Ward said...

So.. You're lying. Or you're being dishonst. You pick.

Neither. Yes, yes, Paul Ryan wants to eliminate "fraud, waste, and abuse." (snoring now). I think HE is the one lying because he's made it abundantly clear (as have you) that the government shouldn't be helping people at all. Nice try, but neither of you are fooling me.

What's even more interesting here is that his plan would empower the government to decide who is abusing the system. Since the government is terrible at doing this sort of thing (as you remind me on several occasions), doesn't it follow logically that they would screw up who they would kick off and who they wouldn't?

Are you seriously arguing that ending fraud in the food stamp program would be a bad thing?

Yes. I'll set aside the obvious reason (looking after our fellow man) and focus on the economic one. These individuals contribute to the economy, whether you like it or not. Take that away and you erode growth in a tenuous economic time.

Are you really unable to conceive of the idea that welfare programs are not an unmitigated social good, and that more of them is not always better?

Again, back to the stereotype of the liberal again. I don't think we need more social programs, necessarily. But we don't need to slash all the ones we have in place, particularly when they don't really contribute that much to the debt or deficit. There are many reasons why these people are on food stamps, Hap. To say that they are all lazy is truly an "in the bubble" belief. And before you haul off and act indignant, you're not fooling me. I know that's what you think:)

The other thing to add here is a challenge to you. Add up all the money that goes to food stamps and social safety net programs. Write that down. Now add up all the welfare that corporations and wealthy people get. Write that number down.

Why are you more concerned about the first number than the second?

Mark Ward said...

Have you ever considered where Democrats would be if they could no longer convince black Americans that Republicans are trying to bring back Jim Crow?

I think the GOP does a fine job on its own in letting black Americans what they think of them. Black culture, after all, doesn't reward...what was it again, Hap?:)

Honestly, I've never quite understood this particular avoidance strategy of yours.

I think it's pretty self explanatory and, ironically, you just did it again by calling it MY avoidance strategy. Rather than accept the very clear willful ignorance on the right, you "get ahead" by saying that the left is willfully ignorant. It's like me (a bald man) attacking a man (with a head full of hair) for having a chrome dome that I can use to see myself shaving. Honestly, it's very frustrating.

Mark Ward said...

you really do, in fact, think that 50 million people just can't figure out their best interest as well as you can.

They could figure it out if they set aside their bias about Democrats and liberals. It's largely willful ignorance, Hap, and it's supported by out and out lying by the right and it's pundits to make them all feel better.

Now to your questions...

a. true, but it's not simply a matter of being well informed. Many don't want to be informed because of that whole anathema to change thing...stubborn 8 year old boy having a temper tantrum...the seemingly impenetrable bubble etc...

b. some are, some are just prejudiced. Remember there is a difference. I should also point out here that my father in law votes Democratic in every election but thinks that my daughter shouldn't ever date a black guy. In fact, most of my in laws are racist and/or prejudiced but still vote for Democrats. Of course, this is because they are older and still a part of the whole Dixiecrat thing. The GOP has been very successful in converting most of them to their side, however.

c. somewhat true, although there are plenty of rich people who vote against their best interests (See? It works both ways:)) and vote for Democrats. But why do they do that? I'm very interested in your answer on this one.

Most, if not all of the voters who voted against Obama in the last election do not understand what is in their best interests in the matters on which they vote.

False. I'd say some, not most or all. Some likely vote GOP because they are stubborn and loathe to change. Last in line would an example of this. He knows he is voting against his best interest but does it anyway because he can't admit when he is wrong. Others voted against Obama simply because of personal preference (liking green beans as opposed to peas) with their best interests not being a factor.

True or false: Mark understands, better than most if not all of the voters who voted against Obama in the last election, what is in their best interests.

False. I'm talking about specific groups here in red states...the impoverished on government aid...the working class joe who is diligently putting money in his IRA and wants to keep it safe...the small business owner who needs protection from big business...all three of these are examples of people who benefit from social programs, financial regulation, and government protection that Democrats traditionally support.

a. true, but that's not just the case with the right. I had an argument last night with a friend of mine who wants democratic socialism here in this country which, I think, would be a giant mistake.

b. true, but that's also true of many on the left. I do study this more than your average bear so I think I should get credit for it.

c. false, mostly because of the way you worded the question. It's not simply a matter of thinking hard (how does one do that, anyway?). It's willing to accept change and new ideas. I don't see many new ideas coming from the right these days...just the same old failed ideas interlaced with anger, hate and fear.

last in line said...

Tell me which best interest of mine I vote against.

Mark Ward said...

Last, I'll tell you tomorrow when we are disc golfing:)

Hap, two other things I forgot to comment on earlier..

Have you seen such a study, or are you just regugitating the good ol "red states suck tax money!" line?

Well, it's pretty easy to figure it out. Here's the map.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html

Now let's click on a county that is deep red(federal aid wise)...let's say Bell County, Kentucky. In 2004, they went 61-38 for Bush and in 2008, they went 70-29 for McCain. How about neighboring Harlan County? 2004-62-39 for Bush, 2008-73-26 for McCain.

Let's try different states. Dickens County, TX shows 76-23 for Bush in 2004 and 75-24 for McCain in 2008. Ripley County, MO shows 65-33 for Bush in 2004 and 64-33 for Obama in 2008.

So, four counties that vote for people that want to cut the aid that they depend on more than other counties. Wow.

Yet, I'm sure that you are also correct in pointing out that some of those deep red counties (again, deep red government aid wise) vote overwhelmingly Democratic but remember that we're talking about state level here. Many red states have large populations centers that traditionally vote Democratic. Isn't it interesting to note that those large population centers across the red states in the south aren't as deeper red as the rural areas and align more with the national averages? Boy, that sure doesn't fit the narrative about how those inner city lazy poor folks are sucking on the government teat, now does it?

However, I've interacted with you enough to conclude that you're just dumb.

Well, of course I am. I'm right about most of the things (not all) that I talk about and (worse) my facts are stupid!

Tinsel Town said...

You are right about very little even with facts. People have broken down your conclusions based on facts and yet you still think you are right. Too funny. You're a blogging clown who represents the lefts cognitive dissonance and projection to a 'T'.

Serial Thrilla said...

You are right about very little even with facts.

Yet, your response contains no facts nor evidence to support your statement. How cowardly and yippie dog like!

juris "bully weasel" imprudent said...

yippie dog

Now, now - I claim all intellectual property rights to the Yippee Little Dog Posse (YLDP) and all derivatives thereof.

You wouldn't stoop to stealing from me would you st?

Mark, looking thru the prism of his anus, darkly, said...

Haplo9: Are you seriously arguing that ending fraud in the food stamp program would be a bad thing?

Mark: Yes. I'll set aside the obvious reason (looking after our fellow man) and focus on the economic one. These individuals contribute to the economy, whether you like it or not. Take that away and you erode growth in a tenuous economic time.

Yeah! You tell him, Mark! Even fraudsters, liars, and cheats need to eat. How could you be so fucking heartless as to deny a living to a scam artist? Why next thing you know, you'll even be cheering on the Justice Department Probing Widespread Stimulus Fraud. Personally, I can't understand why Holder and 0bama haven't quashed this. After all, that money was stimulatin' shit, and went to pay workers on the projects (union people! the neediest of all!) as well as personal gardeners, pool boys, and housemaids of the cronies who ran the companies. You'd just want to snatch the food right out of their mouths, wouldn't you, Hap? What makes it even worse for you, Hap, is that many of these cronies were minorities taking advantage of racial set-asides, so that makes you the worst kind of racist for even noticin' shit like that. Where would the American economy be today without fraudsters, chiselers, and cronies? How else could the government spend money into economy so quickly and efficiently?

And you, Hap, want the little children of these outstanding Americans (documented or not) to starve! What kind of beast are you? I weep for you.

Haplo9 said...

>I think HE is the one lying because he's made it abundantly clear (as have you) that the government shouldn't be helping people at all. Nice try, but neither of you are fooling me.

That's it? The basis of your assertion that Republicans want to end the food stamp program is not something that Paul Ryan or I have said, it's that you can read our minds? Well, I'll give that all the respect it deserves, and note only this - your bubble, again, has put you into this box where you don't believe its possible for a person to support the existence of a welfare program while at the same time want that program to not become a handout for anyone who wants it, regardless of income or wealth. I will note one other thing - this really puts into perspective your constant invocation of "I'm just repeating back what they said!" Apparently what you really mean is "I'm just repeating back what I've read from their minds!" I'll leave it to you to try to figure out why claiming to be able to read the minds of people who disagree with you isn't a very convincing argument.

>Since the government is terrible at doing this sort of thing (as you remind me on several occasions),

Undoubtedly true - is that a justification for not trying at all?

>Yes. ... These individuals contribute to the economy, whether you like it or not. Take that away and you erode growth in a tenuous economic time.

Um, Mark? Doesn't that describe most every person in the country? Should most every person in the country be eligible for food stamps? You seem to be missing the point that a person who is fraudulently collecting food stamps probably doesn't actually need them. You know, thats why their committing fraud. But at least you're honest about stopping fraud being a bad thing, even if you apparently can't figure out why it might be reasonable for someone else to think fraud isn't a good thing.

>To say that they are all lazy is truly an "in the bubble" belief. And before you haul off and act indignant, you're not fooling me. I know that's what you think:)

Ah. You're mind reading again. Again, you'll get the respect you deserve with that response.

Haplo9 said...

>Why are you more concerned about the first number than the second?

Nice try at changing the subject. You always seem to conveniently forget why we are on a subject. You do remember that we got on the subject of food stamps because you asserted that Republicans want to end the program, right? Anyway, is it impossible for you to figure out that a person might be concerned about fraud in social welfare *and* fraud in corporate welfare at the same time?

>Black culture, after all, doesn't reward...what was it again, Hap?:)

I think it goes like this: "Culture doesn't matter, and its racist if you say it does." Truly, your contribution to that discussion was a breakthrough.

>I think it's pretty self explanatory and, ironically, you just did it again by calling it MY avoidance strategy.

Shrug. I don't think theres anything explanatory about it, but whatever. Keep in mind that I'm not the one making sweeping claims about what is in all Democrats self interest - you are.

>It's largely willful ignorance, Hap, and it's supported by out and out lying by the right and it's pundits to make them all feel better.

Well, it's good to be honest. out of curiosity, how many of those 50 million people have you met? Or are you just mind reading the vast majority of them? Btw - what kind of proportions are you talking about here? 50% of that 50 mil possess willful ignorance about Democrats? 75%? Is it even possible to vote for R without the reason being something negative, in your view?

Haplo9 said...

>But why do they do that?

(referring to rich people voting D) Unlike you, I don't happen to be a mind reader. I think you'd have to ask them. I could posit several theories, but I don't have any particular way of testing them.

Anyway, I take it there is no possibility, in your bubble, for voters to not vote for Democrats because of something like this:

Voters understand the benefits of Democrats and Democratic policies but either don't think those policies are actually very beneficial, or don't believe the tradeoffs (such as higher taxes, increasing regulation, or less social cohesion) are worth the said benefit. The reasoning behind this tends to vary quite a bit depending on the individual.

No? Not possible? Simply invalid? "Democrats and Democratic policies are good" is simply objective truth in your bubble?

>Last in line would an example of this. He knows he is voting against his best interest but does it anyway because he can't admit when he is wrong.

(Apollogies Last) If Last says you can, I think you should state it here. I'm very curious, since I think it's near 100% certainty that the interest you think is his best is not an interest he believes is his best, or should care about. In other words, he has different priorities and principles than you do. Except you don't seem to think that it is possible for that the be true, at least, not with reasoning you'd accept.

Haplo9 said...

>False. I'd say some, not most or all.

How many of the 50 million, would you say? And how does this square with what you implied above, where you seemed comfortable stating that the 50 million people don't vote for Democrats because:

"They could figure it out if they set aside their bias about Democrats and liberals. It's largely willful ignorance, Hap, and it's supported by out and out lying by the right and it's pundits to make them all feel better."

>the impoverished on government aid

Er, how do you know that the impoverished on government aid don't vote Democrat already?

>the small business owner who needs protection from big business

Speaking as a small business owner.. Yeah. You don't know what you're talking about. Democrats have never been friends of my business, which isn't to say that Republicans have been either. Also I think you're ignoring the most common purpose of regulation - to hurt smaller players in an industry in order to help the big players. Both political parties are very guilty of supporting laws like this, so I'm a little skeptical of your claim that democrats traditionally do that.

>I do study this more than your average bear so I think I should get credit for it.

Based on what you've said on the subject, no, no credit deserved. In fact I would suspect that studying has done more to put you in your bubble than anything else.

>It's not simply a matter of thinking hard (how does one do that, anyway?).

It's a reference to your oft stated ability of reflection, which you seem to think gives you more insight on matters than the average Joe.

>Well, of course I am. I'm right about most of the things (not all) that I talk about and (worse) my facts are stupid!

Don't worry, I'm equal opportunity. I'd be comfortable saying that any liberal who bases their opinions of conservatives off of mind reading is an idiot. In fact, I've seen a few others in the blogosphere - maybe 5 or 6. I've got 50 million more liberals to meet though before I can form an opinion about them. Just going to have to avoid stereotyping them until I meet them. Generally a good idea to avoid stereotyping people you haven't actually talked to - right Mark?

>Boy, that sure doesn't fit the narrative about how those inner city lazy poor folks are sucking on the government teat, now does it?

I guess? What I'm trying to point out to you is that you don't seem to have evidence that people are actually voting against their self interest as you define it, because you're relying on aggregate statistics that don't actually tell you that, for example, individuals who are defrauding the food stamp program are voting for republicans who want to end fraud in the food stamp program. Or that recipients of Medicare are voting for Republicans who want to end Medicare. Of course, its even dumber than that - you think that people who are on food stamps and need them *and* vote republican are voting against their self interest because .. you've read Paul Ryan's mind. I guess you need to teach them to do the same, huh?

Mark Ward said...

How could you be so fucking heartless as to deny a living to a scam artist?

I answered the way I did because we all know that the word "fraud" is a dog whistle for lazy people that don't want to work and just spoon off the government. It's obvious what he really means.

Haplo9 said...

>lazy people that don't want to work and just spoon off the government. It's obvious what he really means.

Again - I can understand that you might want to be intellectually lazy, and continue with the "what you *really* mean is x" thing, but what I don't understand is how you could possibly think that is going to be convincing to anyone who doesn't share your priors, especially the person whos views you are making up. Seriously?

Mark Ward said...

Apparently what you really mean is "I'm just repeating back what I've read from their minds!"

Seriously, Hap, your denial is reaching biblical proportions. Remember the jeering of the Golden Rule at the GOP debates? Or the cheering of Herman Cain's "If you're poor, it's you're fault?" Or how about the cheering to let a man die who doesn't have insurance? Taken alone, these might some outliers but together it's a general sentiment of the right's STATED position. All you really need to do to see that I don't have to read minds is read the comments section at Kevin's blog.

is that a justification for not trying at all?

I think that the amount of money that is being "wasted" is either insignificant or a figment of the imagination by people who want to gut the government at any cost. Now, if you want to talk about waste in defense or medicare, then we'd be talking more seriously. But food stamps? C'mon...

Nice try at changing the subject.

I thought we were talking about welfare. Oh, that's right, rich people don't get any...:)

I think it goes like this:

That's not what you said. You said black culture doesn't reward achievement. Now, why would I need to make things up when you do a great job of illustrating your bias so perfectly.

how many of those 50 million people have you met?

Obviously, not all of them. How many liberals have you met which allow you to make the generalizations that you make? I guess I'm wondering why it's OK for you to make observations and not me.

(such as higher taxes, increasing regulation, or less social cohesion

Except that it's not really higher taxes unless you make a lot of money and even then it's simply letting those top tax cuts expire. The rest will stay in place. Increased regulation, especially in the financial sector, is necessary given the alternative which we have learned from the hard way. Less social cohesion? I don't get that one.

So, the reason you imagine aren't actually real, hence my frustration.

Democrats and Democratic policies are good

No. Democratic policies are the best option available, given the choices and based on what has worked more effectively. They may not always be good or perfect but they are workable. Of course, this is in comparison to no real policy choices at all (AKA the GOP or libertarian plans).

I think you should state it here.

Well, since it's raining here and disc golf looks like it's out of the picture (sniffle sniffle), it's pretty simple. Last is a very money conscious person, as we have seen in comments. I would say the governance of President Obama has been a damn sight better for his portfolio than Bush. Where was the stock market when the president took office? Where is it now? His continued support of conservative policies, despite the obvious fallout from deregulation, makes no sense.

I'd also add that the Ryan budget would place more of a burden on students for college by the cutting of Pell grants. Last has one in college and one soon to be in college. Another reason to vote for Democrats.

I also know that he is pro choice and thinks that gay people should be allowed to marry. Two more reasons not to support the GOP.

Mark Ward said...

How many of the 50 million, would you say?

Well, all of the 50 million vote against Democrats for the variety of reasons I've listed. Some do because of simple preference. Others because they aren't educated enough or don't want to be. Still others do out of anger and fear. In most cases, it's likely a combination.

If I had to pick a number, I'd say you could start with 4-8 million people that watch Fox News on a daily basis. Of course, I know what you are trying to do here and it won't work. Trying to make this into an exact science and then show how "stupid" it is, I have to admit, is amusing but it's really not. As you are one of Kevin's folks, I know that soft sciences are not something that you respect very much. It's black or white or it's "mind reading," right?

how do you know that the impoverished on government aid don't vote Democrat already?

The statistics are listed above with those four counties. There are plenty more of them if you'd like to see them. Click away and compare!

In fact I would suspect that studying has done more to put you in your bubble than anything else.

More Rove...yawn...

I'd be comfortable saying that any liberal who bases their opinions of conservatives off of mind reading

So, this is going to be your continued defense? Mind reading? You're going to have to do better than that.

I think this is going to be a very tough election for you guys and that's even if Obama loses. We live in a world where stated positions on issues are very well documented. Supporting policies and wholeheartedly doing so will have ramifications. Pretending like you don't really support those policies or "aren't really saying that" is awfully evasive.

Saying that someone like me is engaging in mind reading when you and others on the right have actually stated things plain as day is simply dishonest.

Haplo9 said...

>But food stamps? C'mon...

Again with the bubble. Is it really unpossible to care about both fraud in the food stamp program and corporate welfare?

>That's not what you said. You said black culture doesn't reward achievement.

I'm afraid its exactly what I said, only in a lot more words. Culture matters. You were told that repeatedly on thread, and not just by me, and your response was to cry racism. Once again - you made something up.

>I guess I'm wondering why it's OK for you to make observations and not me.

Um, because I haven't made the same absurd claims about how every single democratic voter was misled in one way or another? Because I don't claim to be able to read the minds of people I disagree with? That might have something to do with it..

>Except that it's not really higher taxes unless you make a lot of money

Ever heard of a hypothetical? As in, hypothesize that Republican voters might have a variety of reasons for not voting Democrat that aren't invalid? Well, true, based on your response, you can't.

>No. Democratic policies are the best option available, given the choices and based on what has worked more effectively.

And the people who don't agree that this is the case - each a part of that 50 million who don't vote the right way for various negative reasons, I take it?

Haplo9 said...

>The statistics are listed above with those four counties.

In other words, you don't. (No, the statistics don't say that. In order to support what you are saying you'd have to poll actual welfare recipients, now wouldn't you.)

>Saying that someone like me is engaging in mind reading when you and others on the right have actually stated things plain as day is simply dishonest.

Mark, this isn't hard. When someone says "I believe x" and you turn around and say, "What you really believe is y, and don't tell me otherwise", you're making shit up. You've did it to Paul Ryan and me in this particular thread, and you've done it to every other conservative here at various times in the past. If you need hints as to when, go back through your comment section with an eye towards phrases like, "leftboro baptist" (juris's name for it) or "voices in your head." (Though not the voices in your head tag you made, which has nothing to do with the meaning it was given by us.)

Now Mark, I don't think theres much else to talk about here. You obviously think that ascribing made up positions to people you disagree with is reasonable, while I think its childish. Two suggestions:

1. Consider learning how to be up front when you make stuff up like this. Ie say, "Look at page 39. Ryan didn't actually say he wants to end food stamps, but I know what he really means." The benefit is that you'll likely get less pushback. If I know that you are making things up, I won't even bother to disagree with you. What would be the point of disagreeing with someone who makes things up? I'd have to wade through your thinking and try to figure out what else, if anything, you made up. I suspect that it would be hard for you to do that though since it's likely something thats second nature to you now, it wouldn't surprise me if you don't even know you do it.
2. I know reality is easier to deal with the world when you can place people in neat little boxes like you do with this making up thing. But in one last attempt at breaking through your bubble, consider: doesn't it seem rather convenient (for you) that when you do your little mind reading thing, that the person who you are "reading" always ends up with a position that is far easier to argue against than their actual stated position? Granted, if you were as reflective as you claim to be, you should've asked yourself this question a long time ago, (as I did) and realized that the answer must be yes, so I don't hold out any hope of progress on your part. But you can't say I didn't try!

last in line said...

I do invest in my 401k and my roth IRA. Consider that fact that I'm not even 40 years old yet...hence I probably have 25+ years till retirement. I want the money I am putting into the stock market to buy more shares of stock and my money buys less shares of stock when the stock market goes up like it did in the last quarter. I want to buy low at this point in time. So when the stock market goes down, it's an opportunity for me to buy low. So no - I don't want the dow jones to go up right now. Dow goes down 500 points - last in line contributes money to the mid-cap fund in the Roth. Boom son!

And I don't think deregulation is the only thing that contributed to the 2008 crisis, and while you democrats passed Dodd/Frank, we got MF Global. For every regulation you pass, the people you vote for leave a loophole the size of a dump truck.

Regarding college - I'm currently encouraging the 16 year old and the 9 year old under our roof to re-consider college and think about going into the trades, or some 2 year program that doesn't burden them with tens of thousands of student loan debt.

While your last sentence is accurate regarding my views - those are both non-issues to me. I don't care much about those issues and my support isn't passionate at all on those subjects.

Mark Ward said...

Culture matters. You were told that repeatedly on thread, and not just by me, and your response was to cry racism. Once again - you made something up.

You said "black" culture which identified the color of their skin and you don't see that as being biased or prejudiced at all let alone racist? Oh, the layers of denial continue to be woven thick. Ah well, I'm just a race monger so what do I know? Nothing to see here...move along...

Because I don't claim to be able to read the minds of people I disagree with?

A complete crock of shit. You make assumptions and generalizations about liberals all the time. Now, suddenly, you are a babe in the woods...totally innocent...sheeyeah, right! Your entire ideology is built on ridiculous falsehoods about liberals!!

And the people who don't agree that this is the case - each a part of that 50 million who don't vote the right way for various negative reasons, I take it?

Yes. It's a combination of the factors I've listed above.

In other words, you don't. (No, the statistics don't say that. In order to support what you are saying you'd have to poll actual welfare recipients, now wouldn't you.)

Let's see...four counties that overwhelmingly vote GOP and get over 40 percent of their income from federal aid. The GOP's stated platform is to cut that aid. What do YOU infer from that?

You've did it to Paul Ryan and me in this particular thread, and you've done it to every other conservative here at various times in the past.

So, when President Obama says something and you don't believe him, you're NOT mind reading? You've stated many times on here that politicians say one thing but don't really mean it. I guess I don't understand your criticism as you (like myself) understand all too well what the intention of people in government...in particular, how they act based on their ideology.

For example, you have said that President Obama is a (cue sinister organ music) statist. Yet, he has said repeatedly that he doesn't want to spend time worrying about the economy and the private sector, seeking instead to focus on the international stage. His signature bill offers no public option and is, in fact, a private exchange. But that doesn't matter because you KNOW he is a statist, right?

But you can't say I didn't try!

I feel the exact same way. You can rest assured that I'm going to continue to point out what the "voices in my head" say on a daily basis and, watch, in what now has become quite entertaining, my commenters and others on the right pretend that very clear realities don't actually exist and (drum roll, please) it's all actually my warped perception.

Mark Ward said...

Boom son!

I actually laughed out loud on that one:)

At least you have faith that the market will continue to be strong so that's something.

I still contend, however, that your stated support for Mitt Romney is nothing more than a personal preference because he looks the part of president and is a cool, Wall Street Guy. Yet, his policies would be a return to what caused many of our problems in the first place and would, in turn, harm your financial investments.

President Obama, however, has had four years to show you what he can do, economically speaking. Given what he was handed, I'd say he's done a damn fine job. Private sector jobs added and how many quarters of growth?

to re-consider college and think about going into the trades, or some 2 year program that doesn't burden them with tens of thousands of student loan debt.

Before you continue down this path, I think you need to do some research on the employment prospects of people without college degrees. In addition, this sort of thinking will make our country less competitive in the global market. We need highly educated, young people NOW to compete with BRICS or we are seriously fucked, dude.

last in line said...

My stated support for Mitt Romney? I’ve written on this blog that I don’t care much for Romney. I’ve even told you that in person. Don’t remember when and under what thread it was in, was in the last 7 months or so. I said he does look presidential but that isn’t the reason I’ll end up voting for him.

I don’t like cool wall street guys, which is why I don’t have a financial advisor or work with a broker. Here’s a good summary as to why that is...Your Broker is not your buddy. Just one mans perspective but it’s a perspective I agree with.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I0iO2stKO7kC&pg=PA191&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

You don’t know what his policies will do to the market. Very few people do. Take the article you posted on my facebook profile which you posted on here also...the article quoted Robert Doll, the chief equity investment manager at BlackRock. “Doll says stocks could rise 10 percent more before the end of the year” is a quote that is interpreted by me to be what they call financial porn. Mr Doll doesn’t know what the market is going to do. Very few money managers do.

Sure there are mutual funds that absolutely beat the market...but a majority of the time, the funds that beat the market this year aren’t the same funds that beat the market last year, not the same money manager, and so on. Get some old Money Magazines, look at the best funds of 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and notice that the funds that do the best job of beating their indexes every year are different. Even though there are funds that do beat the average every year, how is one supposed to pick them ahead of time? If Robert Doll had the skill to do that, he would be independently wealthy beyond our wildest imaginations and he would not be wasting his time dispensing investment advice. He also wants you to think the stock market will go up another 10% so you’ll put more money in the stock market, perhaps investing in a Blackrock fund. A whole lot of advice that is given is intended to benefit the person giving out the advice. I’m well aware that a streak can continue for a long time. The classic example is Legg Mason Value Trust during the years it was managed by Bill Miller, which beat the S&P 500 I think it was fifteen years in a row. He became a legend and someone wrote a book about him entitled The Man Who Beats the S&P: Investing with Bill Miller. Then in just two years after the book was released, it gave back all the gains.

last in line said...

I’ve also done research of people with college degrees. Student loan debt has topped credit card and mortgage debt as the biggest debt instrument people have right now. I don’t need a weathervane to know which was the wind in blowing – there are lots of recent grads with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt with degrees that aren’t going to allow them to live out on their own when living on their own includes rent, car payment, insurance, child care, and student loan debt. I think the tide has turned and I think that value of a college education has greatly diminished nowadays. As college costs escalate the dynamic of the college experience changes. No longer are you getting the best and the brightest, but the best and the brightest who's parents can afford to send their kids to college. This narrows the pool considerably. Fancy college diplomas might help in certain career fields. I'm sure it does in the banking industry. However, let's say you want to be an actuary or a lawyer. Those potential employees and grad school applicants get weeded out by a test at the end, and a degree from a fancy school may not help you if you don't score well. An "elite" college degree generally has no more to do with education than a $15,000 watch has to do with accurate timekeeping. Both of them are primarily status symbols. The social purpose of "elite" colleges is to erect and solidify class barriers, and especially to ensure that families which have been wealthy & successful in the past are able to propagate their position down through future generations.

I also think the writing on the wall is everywhere that we are in the middle of what is a very rare thing - a generation that does not do as well financially as the generation that spawned it.

There is more to what I am telling them than what I just jotted down above. I’m telling them that if they want to do something that requires college – then go for it. But just don’t go to college just to be going to college or because all your friends are going. There is a graying of the workforce going on in many specialized trades right now and there will be opportunities there for people with the right set of skills. They know they need a skillset, I’m telling them that college isn’t the end-all, be-all.

Saving the world begins at home. I hope I’m setting a good example for them that you take care of your own family first before you go off saving the spotted owl or on some missionary trip for years on end while your children are in their formative years. In the face of such expectations, disappointment will probably be the ultimate response. People with perspective see the exciting new world of the “I’m going to save the world” types and can immediately recognize limitations of that line of thinking.

BRICS have their own set of problems and I know that you and Nikto love to put your faces against the glass and look at the rest of the world in awe at what countries like China are doing.

Mark Ward said...

said he does look presidential but that isn’t the reason I’ll end up voting for him.

But you will and that's the part that's a real drag. Politically, I don't care who you vote for because MN will end up going for the president anyway. Personally, though, it does bother me because you are a classic example of someone who should vote for Democrats and doesn't. Now, if you simply said to me, "I like Republicans more" just like I like green beans more than carrots, then I am completely without a leg to stand on. That's an opinion based on emotions and my argument would have no validity, place, or merit.

Yet you assert otherwise, claiming "facts and evidence" that GOP policies work despite massive evidence to the contrary...evidence that directly affects you personally and in an adverse way.

I guess what I'm wondering is this: would you vote for a Democrat if it could be reasonably proven that they would act as better stewards of your personal interests? Of your family's? Friends? Heck, even community at large? They've already proven that they do a better job for the country (historically) than Republicans do.

I also think the writing on the wall is everywhere that we are in the middle of what is a very rare thing - a generation that does not do as well financially as the generation that spawned it.

That's true and a big reason for that is education. If we continue to make it more difficult to get college degrees, we will fall behind in competition in the global marketplace.

One of the reasons why previous generations have done so well is because of things like the GI Bill. The president continues to point to the obvious successes of government supported education on our society in general and the Republicans continue to ideologically whine about "gubmint." History has shown that the GOP is simply wrong on this issue.

What I find to be terribly frightening is that the right seems to want to lose our competitive edge in the world simply because they are stubborn about their beliefs in an emotional way. That has to fucking end, now.

last in line said...

I like Republicans more.

Steward of my personal interests? You've already proven that you don't know my personal interests, so how could you prove anything in that department?

>we continue to make it more difficult to get college degrees

We? Who is We? I don't set the price of college classes.

"Seems" to want? As usual, when you place yourself in someone elses head, that person usually comes out looking pretty bad.

juris imprudent said...

who should vote for Democrats and doesn't

Proving that you understand neither the Democrats nor the people who don't vote for them.

As an exercise, you ought to stop and explore an issue every time you write should. Of course, you aren't able to see anything from another person's perspective (not even a little), so it's probably pointless.

Mark Ward said...

I like Republicans more.

Well, then I have no leg to stand on, my argument is without merit, validity, and has no place.

last in line said...

Boom son!