Contributors

Friday, May 06, 2011

Putting Some Things To Bed

Let's put a few things to bed on this beautiful Friday, shall we?

First, let's examine the information we have thus far as to whether waterboarding led to Osama bin Laden.

Hassan Ghul, a Pakistani born detainee, was subjected to some EITs (sleep deprivation, slapping, nudity) and gave up the name of the courier. He was not waterboarded.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libbi gave false information about the courier after they were waterboarded repeatedly. Months later, during routine questioning, KSM still gave false information about the courier. It was these lies that raised the suspicions of the investigators and set them on a course towards doing the bulk of the effort which was (ahem) police work. Thank you, John Kerry.

I know you guys simply must win the argument on every discussion and continually be "right" but, as of this moment, I see nothing to convince me that "waterboarding worked and that's why we caught bin Laden." Grow the fuck up.

Speaking of growing up, bin Lade is dead. It has now been confirmed by the people who lived at the compound AND Al Qaeda. We don't need to see his body nor use it as a warning. The Navy Seals were warning enough. The last thing I would want to do is tell the father, mother, wife, husband, son, daughter of a member of our armed forces that their loved one was killed because of an attack resulting from release of the death photo.

More importantly, the non release of the death photo does not mean he is secretly alive. If he was, don't you think he'd be making us look foolish by parading around the airwaves? In addition, he hasn't been secretly dead since 2001 either. President Bush would not have kept that a secret as it would've certainly helped him during his administration.

So, enough with the silliness, folks. Let's focus on using the intel that we now have to hunt down the rest of these guys. It looks to me like they wanted to attempt something on the tenth anniversary this year with trains. I wonder what else bin Laden's hard drive will reveal?:)

14 comments:

GuardDuck said...

The last thing I would want to do ...because of an attack resulting from release of the death photo.

Let's put something else to bed. People who want to attack and kill us don't need a photo as an excuse.

The people of America, however, have paid the price of admission for that picture show.

Larry said...

I think it's a stretch to say KSM gave false information. You simply don't know enough to say that. I think it's highly probable that KSM never knew the real name of the courier in the first place. He probably knew only an alias and how to contact him. And contact methods would've been changed as soon as the capture of KSM became known. There is a definite time value to intelligence information. Honestly, that's basic cell structure and tradecraft.

Your source is full of shit when it says waterboarding is "near drowning". It feels like you're drowning, and if done improperly might result in harm, but the subjects are not nearly drowned. No agenda by the reporter there, no sirree bob.

It's right to say as the story says, and as Leon Panetta says, that a great deal of patient work of all sorts went into the final product, but as Leon Panetta says, it's impossible to say whether the information gained could've have been gained without now-banned EIT. The unnamed CIA official is also right when he says both sides have mis-characterized it, and specifically lists your point of view as one of the two idiot extremes.

Santa said...

As long as Mark turns out to be one of the idiot extremes than I guess everything is OK. We don't live in an episode of 24, people. Get over the TV fantasy. I don't need to see a photo to know that he is dead nor do I need it to jack off too either.

Larry, I have a question for you. KSM was waterboarded 183 times. If the information he gave us was useful, why so many times? Was it that 183rd time that really did the trick? The whole conversation about waterboarding is childish. It's a complete bullshit way of getting information and anyone that says so is simply trying to cover their ass. Or asses.

blk said...

From the accounts I've read, KSM seems to have acknowledged that the courier existed, but denigrated his role and said he had retired. Not exactly lying, but he was misleading his interrogators -- unless he really didn't know, which could always be possible.

KSM was waterboarded almost 200 times. You really have to question the efficacy of a technique if it used that often to such little effect. Of course, some individuals are more resistant. But it seems that KSM knew they would not intentionally let him die, and was content to suffer the torture without giving any substantive intelligence.

After all, every time they tortured KSM, it was proof that the Americans were thugs guilty of all the perceived crimes that set him on his terrorist crusade. The torture would only serve to harden his resolve. On the other hand, if he were treated fairly, given a lawyer and brought to trial like any other criminal, it would show that we really are a nation of laws and justice. Kindness and fairness can be equally fierce weapons in interrogations: good cop/bad cop works wonders.

Just curious, Mark: what was your opinion on the release of the photos from Abu Ghraib? Those images probably incited violence that killed dozens of Americans.

Mark Ward said...

Tough call on that one, blk. I think they needed to release them to own up to their mistakes. I think that was a different situation than releasing a photo of bin Laden. One is admitting error and the other is a glory parade.

last in line said...

But they both inflame muslims.

last in line said...

But they both inflame muslims.

Larry said...

That "183" factoid is a little misleading. There were 5 sessions in a one month period. Over those 5 sessions of waterboarding, there 183 "pours" of water, each lasting a few seconds.

And why do you think I'm all gung ho for waterboarding, Santa? Just because I point out that Mark really has no basis for claiming it most definitely had no effect? Because I point out that by the statements of some key members of the Obama administration that presumably know quite a lot more about what actually happened, Mark is out towards one of the idiot extremes, I must be on the other extreme? What a quaint notion.

juris imprudent said...

It looks to me like they wanted to attempt something on the tenth anniversary this year with trains.

That just makes me laugh - they really did shoot their whole creative wad with 9/11.

Anonymous said...

Who cares? The children are currently in charge. Interesting take on what really happened here:

http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/

Mark Ward said...

Ah, that's it. Whew! I was worried you guys wouldn't come up this one. Now all is explained and the narrative is back alive!

Anonymous said...

All these threads going and you commented on this one Marxy? You just want to win the argument.

Anonymous said...

But I have to note that your argument was pure sarcasm, Marxy. You didn't attempt to counter anything that may have been in the link (which I did not bother following), you just scoffed and assumed that would be enough to win the argument.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to give Obama the win on this, but I don't think it's possible. He really has no clue, he's just surrounded by progressives who call the shots. Good thing Panetta knows what's up. But could someone please explain why Valerie Jarrett has such a gravitational pull on the President?