Contributors

Sunday, November 11, 2012

A Sunday Dedication

Today I am thinking about Army Cpl. Andrew Wilfahrt who died on Feb. 27, 2011, in Kandahar, Afghanistan, when an improvised explosive device blew his 31-year-old body apart. Andrew was gay and DADT  hadn't quite been repealed when he slipping the surly bonds of earth on that day. But it was soon after.

Andrew was from Minnesota and the election last Tuesday also saw a defeat the marriage amendment. I can't think of a better way to honor his memory than to have hundreds of thousands of Minnesotans stand up and say no to something that would have limited individual rights.

Rights that he died defending.

Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up. You will increase my honor and comfort me once again. (Psalm 71:20-21)

28 comments:

A. Noni Mouse said...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

— Romans 1:18–32

Nothing I can add to that.

Anonymous said...

Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"

You chose to bring the Christian Bible into it.

But, of course, you get to pick and choose which parts of God's Word YOU think were important to Him.

Mark Ward said...

I'll set aside your ignorance of Andrew's service for a moment and say (again) that the Bible is wrong on some things and right on others. In fact, will go as far to say that it contradicts itself and it's up to us to decide what is right and what is wrong. God gave us this choice and, as Christ said, do His works and better. In short, he wanted us to think, not sit in judgement on others.

The Bible is wrong about homosexuality just as it is about slavery, women's rights, and a whole host of other issues. It's right about how we should love one another and strive to live a life of service to those less fortunate. That's ultimately how God will judge us, not our sexual habits.

Further, both of you pick and choose which parts of the Bible to adhere to and which ones not to adhere to so it smacks of hypocrisy when you make comments such as this. In the end, it doesn't really matter because I know that folks like you need to have these beliefs to prevent yourselves from behaving poorly (threat of hellfire etc).

I don't need them because all that I require is the love of Christ and a mission to help others as best I can.

A. Noni Mouse said...

as Christ said

How do you know that's what he said?

In other words:

the Bible is wrong on some things

Why? Why is the Bible untrustworthy? Is God incapable of accurately getting what He wants said written down?

It's right about how we should love one another and strive to live a life of service to those less fortunate. That's ultimately how God will judge us, not our sexual habits.

Really? How do you know? That's not what the Bible says:

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their DEEDS.
— Revelation 20:12

both of you pick and choose which parts of the Bible to adhere to and which ones not to adhere to

I thought you said the 10 Commandments were still good?!?

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
— Exodus 20:16

Anonymous said...

Markadelphia; Fact-Checker for God's Word.

Mark Ward said...

How do you know that's what he said?

John 14:12

Even greater works than Christ, Noni...what does that mean to you? I'm asking you to think.

And it's not the Bible is untrustworthy. It's that it was written (by men) over 2000 years ago in a different language in a different culture. Some things simply don't apply to today. You accept this is as well. You don't adhere to every single word in the Bible, do you?

A. Noni Mouse said...

John 14:12

Again, YOUR claim is that the Bible is full of errors. How do you know this isn't an error?

You accept this is as well.

Not in the way YOU do.

When God said, “I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;” (Gen 26:4), did that promise apply to you? Or me? Or Nikto? Or anyone other than Abraham? Of course not!

When the Bible gives promises or commands only to certain groups of people, those apply ONLY to those people to whom they are given. So when he told the ancient nation of Israel not to eat shellfish, or pork, etc., etc., etc., he was only telling the ancient nation of Israel not to eat those things. He was not giving those commands to all people for all time.

However, when God flatly says "this is sin/abomination", He is stating a principle that applies to all people for all times. For example,

“Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made man.”

— Genesis 9:6

In this case, there is no stated limitation on this command. It was not a given to a particular people group; it was to "man", and there was not even a "you" used to limit it to the recipient — in other words, all humanity.

You brought up the example in the past of needing to wear glasses making you guilty of violating Leviticus 21:17-23. But you aren't a priest—a descendent of Aaron—who is offering burnt offerings in the Temple. Again, the commandment applies only to what the command applies to.

Over at TSM, you just made the claim that you're a "student". How can you make this claim when you didn't learn from the last time this topic came up?!?

So back to the point. If there are supposed to be "errors and contradictions" in the Bible, WHY is God unable to give us writings without your claimed "errors and contradictions"?

Mark Ward said...

Look, dude, we can resolve this in a very simple way. All you have to do is answer my question, which you haven't yet.

Do you think everything in the Bible is accurate? Yes or No. My answer is No.

A. Noni Mouse said...

All you have to do is answer my question

I did! It was necessary to address the incorrect assumptions you built into your question. But since you apparently listened to the voices in your head rather than reading what I wrote, here's the short version:

Do you think everything in the Bible is accurate?

Yes, but attention must always be paid to context and the scope of commands and promises. (Though I didn't mention another crucial point: description vs. approval/prescription.)

Now, how about you answer my question; the one I've asked numerous times here and in the past:

Do you think everything in the Bible is accurate? Yes or No. My answer is No.

And my question is simple: WHY???

Why do you think God is unable to produce accurate writings?

Anonymous said...

Like always, Mark claims he gets to invent his own religion, based on whatever truths he deems true.

The beauty is, that's his right.

But don't claim to be a Christian, when you clearly don't obey the Word of God. You only obey the word of Mark.

Personally, I don't give a fuck. YOU are the one making claims of religious salvation, not me. But somehow I don't think an all-powerful God wants you to pick and choose which of His words you believe in.

Anonymous said...

"both of you pick and choose which parts of the Bible to adhere to..."

Oh, I almost forgot:

Fuck you and your Christian Bible. I don't pick and choose any part of Christianity or YOUR new and improved Marxianity. Fuck you for assuming I do.

Mark Ward said...

Why do you think God is unable to produce accurate writings?

Because God didn't write the Bible, Noni. Men did. And men are flawed.

The Bible is the best we can do to interpret God's word but there are obvious discrepancies. Whatever way you want to make sense of them is fine but they are still there.

Anonymous said...

Because God didn't write the Bible, Noni. Men did.

Of course men wrote the Bible! No one claims that God wrote it with His own hand. But what makes you think God is unable to do what mere humans can do—get someone to write what they want written?

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
— 2 Timothy 3:16

The claim here is that men wrote what God wanted them to write. When this is done by mere humans, it's called "ghostwriting". It's a common practice.

So why is the God who could create the entire universe, create a human being from dust, and raise himself from the dead unable to something so simple?

there are obvious discrepancies

So far, the only "discrepancies" you've presented have been ones between what God's Word actually says and what you want it to say; or by taking something vague, and out of all the possible interpretations of that section, insisting on one that contradicts other far clearer portions of the Bible when there are non-contradictory interpretations which are possible. In short, YOU are the one creating the discrepancies, not the text.

(formerly known as A. Noni Mouse)

Mark Ward said...

between what God's Word actually says and what you want it to say;

In my view, that's how I see you. You want a God that is angry and strikes down sinners, not one that forgives and loves because Christ gave his life for us. You ignore key passages in the New Testament in favor of ones in the Old Testament.

Worse, you don't stop and think that maybe the men (not women, mind you) that wrote the Bible had a very limited view of the world and that we have a wider one now.

Juris Imprudent said...

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but if just amuses the hell out of me to watch M butcher Christian theology like he does economics.

Mark Ward said...

That's a nice criticism but it doesn't really mean much without specific examples. As with economics, you're simply pissed off that I have depth of knowledge about a particular subject and are stunted in being able to prove me wrong and/or win the argument.

Anonymous said...

You want… You ignore key passages…

Wow. That is wrong is no many ways that I could write Kevin Baker style "wall 'o words" essay about all the ways it's wrong; from the fact that it's simply untrue (and you can't find me saying anything like that, ever) all the way through you violating your own claimed view:

[The Bible]'s right about how we should love one another

Didn't Jesus himself have something to say about such behavior? Oh, right. Here it is:

“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”
— Matthew 7:5

I'll bet you were hoping for exactly such an essay on your ad hominem logical fallacy because it would mean you've successfully distracted me from the fact that you Didn't. Answer. The. Question.

It didn't work.

Again, what makes you think God is UNABLE to do what mere humans can do—get someone to write what they want written?

the men that wrote the Bible had a very limited view of the world and that we have a wider one now

This claim is meaningless unless you can show that God could not have told them what to write.

Juris Imprudent said...

you're simply pissed off that I have depth of knowledge about a particular subject

One course in economics and you have "depth of knowledge"? You are so fucking funny when you are indignant! I make no pretense at all to being a theologian - but I can still tell when you are butchering it up. If only you ever saw yourself as others see you!

Anonymous said...

Well, it's been a couple of days and Mark is now silent on this thread, even though he's still responding on older threads. I guess it's time to call it.

Clearly, Mark has no logical reason at all to think that God could not have told men what to write as scripture. But he refuses to admit it because such an admission would prevent him from continuing to fulfill this prophecy:

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
— 2 Timothy 4:3–4

Mark Ward said...

There's not really anywhere else to go, Noni. Until you accept that God no longer will remember our sin and wickedness because of the sacrifice that Christ made, there's not much point in discussion about the Bible in general. You need your angry God with hands full of sinners...

Further, not everything in the Bible applies to today. Did you ever stop and think why Christ was completely silent on the issue of homosexuality and abortion?

I'm willing to continue to have a discussion about this if you are going to be more open minded about the Bible and...well, change. That last word could be applied to other topics as well but that "c" word is pretty much not going to happen given your stringent ideology.

Anonymous said...

Until you accept…

You're arguing with the Voices In Your Head again! C'mon, Marxy, focus. Over here. That's right. You're supposed to be talking to me, not some imagined phantasm haunting the nooks and crannies of your fever dreams. Stop trying to put your words into my mouth, dammit!

I'm actually quite anxious to give a detailed explanation of how salvation does work, but A) it's off topic, and B) it's pointless to look at what God's Word has to say without first establishing that it is God's Word.

Did you ever stop and think why Christ was completely silent on the issue of homosexuality…

Except that he was not silent on what marriage is:

He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
— Matthew 19:4–6

He's doing two things here. First He's restating THE definition of marriage: One Man, One Woman, For Life. Second, He's point out that Genesis is authoritative. In fact, notice where He's quoting from:

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply…

— Genesis 1:27–28

The very first command God gave to mankind is to bear children. Biology has not changed since this command was given. Two members of the same sex CANNOT have children.

Of course, your "Christ was completely silent" ignores the fact that Christ IS God, and that ALL of Scripture is HIS Word. Which brings us right back around to your claim that it isn't God's Word. So, again, prove it. How is it that God could not possibly have done this?

For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
— 2 Peter 1:21

…and abortion?

Wait just a doggone minute. Didn't YOU just complain about jumping to another topic in the vote fraud thread? (Even though that's not what happened.) I am not going to talk about abortion because I'm not going to let you drag the conversation off topic.

if you are going to be more open minded about the Bible and...well, change.

Again, Why? Let me repeat that because you keep missing it!

WHY?

WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?


Just because YOU said it? You're awfully full of yourself! You have to give REASONS why I should change my mind. And those reasons are precisely the question I keep asking you over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and…

It's such a key question, yet you never, ever even attempt to answer it. It's clear to me that the only answer you can give is "That's just how I WANT it to be."

One more time:

Why is God UNABLE to have men write what He wants written?

Mark Ward said...

God isn't unable, it's man that is. Man is inherently flawed, no? Since we both know that this is true, why do you trust the totality of the word when there are so many obvious contradictions?

God, for example, can't be vengeful and angry with many sinners in his hands at the same time as being loving and purging his wrath on his son who willingly accepted all of our sins.

All I'm asking is that you think a little bit in looking at the Bible and not adhere so strongly (to a fault, really) to scriptural literalism. Honestly, if you say you are for equal rights for all men and freedom (as many conservatives contend), then you must, by logic, reject large swaths of the Bible that deal with slavery and women's rights. Gay people also fall under this category.

Anonymous said...

God isn't unable, it's man that is. Man is inherently flawed, no?

So you're claiming that God cannot make us perfect? But that's part of our salvation!

Let me put it this way: Is God sovereign over every part of the universe? When He decides that something will happen, can human flaws, or even human evil prevent that from happening? If there's any one theme running through the Bible, it's that God is in charge. Period. NOTHING happens without His will or His permission.

Unless, of course, God is too weak to overcome human flaws. Flaws that even weak, broken humans can overcome.

You claim God cannot have men write what He wants written. But we flawed and imperfect humans do that particular feat all the time! And it's done successfully. It's called ghostwriting.

So if mere humans can do this, why can't the Lord over all creation, who knows every star by name without missing one, who numbers every hair on our head, who can calm a powerful storm with a word, and conquer death like it's no big deal? Any "god" who is so weak that he cannot manage mere words is one who needs to be nailed down to keep from falling over.

Your "god" is not my God. Your "god" is so pathetically weak that he is no stronger than a carved piece of wood. People can make fun of him, asking you whether he's not answering prayers because he's sleeping or hiding out in the bathroom. Your "god" is the product of your own vain imagination. He is not the God of the Bible.

My God is the God of the Bible. He is a powerful God. He is able to create the universe with a word. All nature belongs to Him. There is nothing He does not know. When we try to do evil, He can turn that into something good. When He decides that a thing shall be done, it is. Period.

He is also a perfect God; a careful God. There is no detail that slips past Him. No logic that's skipped. No math, no sub-atomic partical, not the tiniest bit of energy which is not accounted for, thoroughly understood, and perfectly in place to accomplish His plans. He is so perfect that there is no need for Him to change.

His perfection includes perfectly just. There is no crime that goes appropriately unpunished, no matter how small. No deed done well that goes unnoticed and unrewarded.

He is also perfectly loving. He chose to set aside all that justly belongs to Him, and voluntarily come to earth to suffer the punishment which we justly deserve. And by taking that punishment upon Himself, He completes His perfect love by giving those who are willing to accept His sacrifice on our behalf and give ourselves to Him the ability to crawl into His lap like little children and call Him "Daddy".

You accuse me of not wanting to change. The God I serve is, Large and In Charge, Perfect In Every Way, and willingly took the punishment I very much deserve so that He can one day replace my imperfection with His own. Why would I ever change such a God for one who is so much weaker than me that he can't even speak for himself? That would be insane!

Mark Ward said...

"My" God is weak? Because he loves us and forgives us because of Christ's sacrifice? And you wonder why folks like you are called The American Taliban.

Anonymous said...

Weak. As in "lacking in force, potency, or efficacy; impotent, ineffectual, or inadequate". Powerless, unable to act, feeble, pathetic.

You are able to get someone to write what you want. As a teacher, I'm sure you do it all the time. All it takes is for you to say, "Write this down."

Yet you claim God is not even able to do that much. That is weaker—as in less powerful—than the average human being. If such a god is so powerless that he can't even do what we can do, then he certainly can't do more than we can, and it doesn't matter what sacrifice was made because he could not have risen from the dead and he does not have the power to save us from anything.

You cannot have it both ways. Either He has the power to accomplish His will—which necessarily includes the power to do anything we can do—or he has no more power than a typical man-made idol.

Mark Ward said...

Ah, but Noni, you are forgetting that He has given us free will and it's up to us now to choose. There is no more need for his power because we must come to Christ freely and not by force. If we accept him as our savior and the son of God, we will be saved. There's no asterisk after that. It's just that simple. We are forgiven our sins because of Him. The power comes from the belief, not the authority of God.

After that, we should try to follow a life that serves the less fortunate as that is how God will ultimately judge us. You guys get all hung up on sex and sin (and I know why, btw:)) and forget about how many times God has instructed us to help the poor and sick in whatever way we can.

And, yes, that does include government.

Anonymous said...

you are forgetting that He has given us free will and it's up to us now to choose.

WHAT?!?!?

What does our ability to choose have to do with his ability TO DO what HE decides to do? If you ask a quadriplegic with no mechanical assistance to paint a room, it does not matter what color you choose, he Is Not Able to paint it. If your god is not able to have men write something, then he is not able to defeat death. In that case it simply does not matter what we choose to ask of him; it's just not going to happen.

BTW, I did not "forget" that. You're just arguing with the Voices In Your Head™ again.

Anonymous said...

BTW, this sentence tells me you didn't even read my whole comment:

Because he loves us and forgives us because of Christ's sacrifice?

I addressed this as part of that comment, as praise for Him. But you clearly either didn't read that far, or you're deliberately twisting what I said.

I see you're back to runaway mode again.