Contributors

Saturday, May 03, 2014

Undocumented Workers Used To Be OK


39 comments:

Juris Imprudent said...

So, it is a liberal desire to import lots of cheap workers to exploit and worsen the state of income inequality, is that it?

Unknown said...

They view them as voters. That's why they want them here.

Markadelphia, what will inserting a good chunk of cheap labor into our workforce do for the low income folks already struggling?

Mark Ward said...

I disagree, Rob. That's what you think they think because that's your perception (see-jaded). It's very short sighted because if the GOP embraced immigration reform, they'd likely have hundreds of thousands of new voters. These are people with strong religious backgrounds and a general distaste for the US government. And you are pushing them away? It makes no sense to me.

Juris Imprudent said...

That's what you think

That is a very bad habit you have there M - telling other people what they think. Particularly since you aren't even all that good at telling them what you think.

I do support a far more open immigration policy than we currently have; I still believe people want to come here for the opportunity this country provides, for people yearning for freedom. Unlike you M I see that there are many different views on immigration - not just mine which is correct and everyone else that is wrong.

GuardDuck said...

Yeah, I support immigration reform.

Of course by immigration reform I mean modifying the LAWS upon which people immigrate to this country. By LAWS I mean rules by which people must follow.

So when discussing this thing called immigration reform with people who see my insistence that if you are going to have LAWS that regulate immigration that those laws actually should be followed, as some sort of racial hatred or discrimination - then we pretty much aren't even talking the same language as each other.

Mark Ward said...

Laws...yeah, right. You mean onnly the ones you like. You don't see to like tax laws all that much.

Juris Imprudent said...

You don't see to like tax laws all that much.

I take it that you see nothing about tax law to complain about - once it is law, that's it, no complaining?

Because I sure seem to recall you bitching about various tax law provisions. I must be mistaken because you couldn't really be that kind of a shit-head hypocrite could you?

GuardDuck said...

Yup, just like you don't like tax laws huh?


Oh wait, you want to change tax laws. Well, so do I. We just disagree on what directions those changes should take.

On the other hand -

Do you think we should have ANY border and immigration policy? Any restrictions upon who or how many can immigrate?

If so, what do you propose to do with those who bypass your own restrictions?

Mark Ward said...

I support Marco Rubio's plan on immigration reform which answers your questions. What would you like to see instead?

GuardDuck said...

You didn't answer this one.

If so, what do you propose to do with those who bypass your own restrictions?

Juris Imprudent said...

I support Marco Rubio's plan on immigration reform which answers your questions.

Rubio's plan doesn't answer the big question - if you grant amnesty (even if you don't call it that) now, how do you stop more people from continuing to evade our immigration restrictions (i.e. crossing the border illegally)?

Unless you have a plan for how to handle more immigrants you better have a plan for how you are going to keep them out. Rubio doesn't know what to do about that. Apparently neither do you.

Mark Ward said...

Obviously neither one of you have seriously studied the bill.

Both of you do a great job of being critics. How would you solve this problem?

GuardDuck said...

I've studied it....I'm asking you, not Rubio - because I don't think your previously stated positions agree with your supposed agreement with Rubio's plan.

Again - What do you propose to do with people who bypass your own restrictions?

Juris Imprudent said...

Obviously neither one of you have seriously studied the bill.

Then if the bill solves the problem why are you asking me how I would handle it? Is it because you are a lying piece of shit with no ability to comprehend what he reads and an insatiable need to prove how smart you think you are?

It's a simple question - how do you control immigration if there are no consequences for breaking immigration law? This should be easy for you because you insist you know the answer (i.e. the govt uses force to back up the law).

Mark Ward said...

I'm done answering loaded questions, juris. I wish you could converse in something other than logical fallacese.

GuardDuck said...

Oh for cripes sake. I wish you could actually try to converse.

Juris Imprudent said...

Fuck you idiot child, there isn't a logical fallacy in there. There is simply a question that you don't have an answer to and you are too fucking immature and insecure to admit so.

Mark Ward said...

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

Juris Imprudent said...

You are a fucking idiot to claim that is a loaded question. It is simple and fundamental.

Allow me to answer: you allow for more immigration. Of course there are a lot of liberals and conservatives that choke on that - for different reasons. Then you can grant amnesty without worrying about how to deal with the next surge of illegal immigrants. Hell, I'd even liberalize guest worker status for those who don't want to live here permanently.

GuardDuck said...

Are you prepared to forcibly deport 50,000 people per year?

Juris Imprudent said...

Now there GD is a true mind-blower about human beings; how many think Obama is more enlightened and fair on immigrants than Bush and the Repubs - yet he is actually deporting vastly more than Bush did.

Same thing with medical marijuana.

Mark Ward said...

And yet the GOP don't trust him to enforce immigration laws. I don't get it.

I still don't see either of you putting forth a plan and standing behind it.

GuardDuck said...

I don't see you paying more than lip service to a plan you supposedly endorse.

Are you OK with deporting 50,000 people a year?

Are you OK with deporting a couple more million people right now?


What is your plan to deal with people who bypass immigration restrictions?


Mark Ward said...

Lots of questions but no stance of your own. You criticism means nothing when stand for nothing.

Juris Imprudent said...

I still don't see either of you putting forth a plan and standing behind it.

That's 1) because you have no reading comprehension, and 2) I'm not a fucking politician.

Are you really as stupid as you so seem to be?

GuardDuck said...

Already stated in previous threads dipshit.

I have tentative support for Rubio's plan.


Now can you get off your (mistaken) high horse?

What do you think should be done with people who bypass immigration restrictions?

GuardDuck said...

Juris, yes. Yes he is.

Mark Ward said...

I need more specific information. Which people? How? It's too vague of a question and reeks of baiting.

GuardDuck said...

Which people? People who bypass immigration restrictions. - cross the border illegally, over stay visas etc.

That's a pretty simple and direct statement and your question reeks of deflection.

How? Jeez.....

That's what I'm ASKING YOU. What do you think should be done with them?


Christ Mark - I'm asking WHAT YOU think should be done....damn.

Mark Ward said...

The first thing that has to happen is we need to pass Rubio's plan which makes your question a little bit different, doesn't it? Less people will cross the border and less will overstay their visas. After the plan has passed, anyone who crosses the border illegally or overstays their visa should be deported. But you aren't really being honest here and making it sound like after the plan has passed, we will still have as big of a problem as we have now. We won't.

GuardDuck said...

You just can't have an honest conversation can you?


A simple question, but you have to throw out all kinds of shit to confuse it.


You say we have to deport those who bypass immigration restrictions.....


Even after the Rubio plan do you have any idea how many that would be.

I asked if you'd be OK with deporting 50,000 people a year. Would you?

That's how many you could expect to be deported even after the Rubio plan takes effect. Did you do your homework on that?

Mark Ward said...

A simple question, but you have to throw out all kinds of shit to confuse it.

Remember back in the good ol' days when everything was black and white? Blacks knew their place, the gays went to jail, women stayed at home, we could play all day long outside because it was a safe, and, best of all, wetbacks were quickly turned out and not stealing our jobs. Sniffle...

I asked if you'd be OK with deporting 50,000 people a year. Would you?

Yes

That's how many you could expect to be deported even after the Rubio plan takes effect. Did you do your homework on that?

https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics/

http://www.statisticbrain.com/number-of-u-s-deportations/

Yes, because it would be a vast improvement.

Were you under the impression that you were going to "get me" somehow? I find it endlessly amusing that you think that somehow because I'm not brainwashed like you are that I must be an idiot. Gadzooks!

GuardDuck said...

See there you go, can't have an honest discussion.


So 50,000 people deported yearly is ok by you?

So my question is - what's the magic number?

You said deporting 'millions' would be "the greatest humanitarian crises planet has ever seen". But deporting 50,000 a year would not?

What's the line? Does 50,001 become a humanitarian crises? Or is it only a crisis when it reaches, say 1,000,001?


Oh, and don't forget. The Rubio plan only extends 'forgiveness' to those who've been here illegally since before 2012. So that means there are around one million at this moment that could be deported too. More the longer it would take for the border to be secured prior to implementation of the 'forgiveness'.

Juris Imprudent said...

Remember back in the good ol' days when everything was black and white?

That was yesterday for you, right? Or 10 minutes ago? Hell, you'll still be saying the same shit tomorrow - so the good ol' days just never end.

Mark Ward said...

You said deporting 'millions' would be "the greatest humanitarian crises planet has ever seen". But deporting 50,000 a year would not?

What's the line? Does 50,001 become a humanitarian crises? Or is it only a crisis when it reaches, say 1,000,001?


Considering we deport an average of a quarter of million people a year for the last 15 years and reached just under a half a million in 2012, we can obviously handle at least that many without it being a crisis. The question is...would that average number be reduced if the Rubio plan would be enacted? I think it would. Do you? BTW, you are aware there is a difference between 50,000 people and 11 million, right?

When you start talking about deporting people in the millions, you obviously have to think about cost in addition to the humanitarian issues (something you don't give a shit about as evidenced by your snark here but we'll get back to that in a moment). Let's talk about something you care more about than people...government spending. How much do you think it would cost the American tax payer to deport 1 or 2 million illegal immigrants a year? What kind of a hit would our economy take with that much cheap labor exiting the market? I don't know, that's why I am asking.

It's quite apparent that you really haven't thought any of this through. Imagine deporting mass amounts of people back to Mexico. What would happen if some of the died along the way? What if some were children? How would our government look? See, this is where you look like a complete dick, GD...a cold and unfeeling asshole....an asshole, I might add, who has no real plan of their own. Just "tentative" support of the Rubio plan. What does that even mean anyway? Are you that spineless that you can't even take a stand behind a conservative like Rubio? Is criticism all you know? I know I don't have all the answers and some of the ones I do have certainly aren't perfect but at least I have the guts to stand for something that works towards a solution to this issue. What do you have?

As always, I'd like to see you prove me wrong and answer a few of these questions.

GuardDuck said...

So no magic number then? You just know it when you see it?

How about this - everything you said about deporting millions is EXACTLY the same, individually for a single person. The scale is the only change.

If it's OK to deport one person for illegally entering the country, then deporting 100 or 1 million is no different.

But that's the problem with your values. They have no consistency. Hell, if you'd said you wouldn't deport anybody at least you'd be consistent. But you aren't. So don't be talking to me about humanitarian principles. If your desire not to deport millions was really based on humanitarian principles you'd be against deporting a single person as well.

I'm just fine with my humanity though, thanks for assuming you know exactly what it is.

Tentative support mean exactly that dipshit. I support it depending upon the way it shakes out in the political arena. You know amendments and riders can change the fundamentals of such don't you?

The question is...would that average number be reduced if the Rubio plan would be enacted? I think it would. Do you?

I thought you'd said you'd researched the Rubio plan? You do realize that the plan requires the border to be secured to the point of stopping 90% of all crossings prior to implementing the 'forgiveness' portion don't you? You do realize that with 500,000 people illegally getting through each year that 90% means still getting 50,000 through a year. Don't you.

Yes, perhaps if the chance of making it through is reduced to such an extent less will even try. And if positive employment checks work (which they have to in order to go ahead with the 'forgiveness') then there will be even less incentive to try.

But therein lies another thing you don't seem to be thinking about while you criticize me. The economic costs of deporting 'cheap labor'? By supporting the Rubio plan you do realize that the end of that so-called cheap labor comes with it too, don't you? What about those economic costs?

Mark Ward said...

By supporting the Rubio plan you do realize that the end of that so-called cheap labor comes with it too, don't you?

Well, now we know who hasn't studied the plan. Here it is again for you to actually read this time.

http://www.rubio.senate.gov/public/?a=Files.Serve&File_id=adefad85-7f5c-4f3e-a4dc-366a1b71ad38

Read the sections marked "Highly Skilled Workers" and "Guest Worker Program." Our economy will improve as a result of this plan.

I've answered plenty of your questions and, as is invariably the case, you haven't put forth any answers of your own. As in the other thread, I'm done with you on this issue until you put forth your own ideas. Let's start with a simple question for you. Currently we have 11 million illegal immigrants in this country.

What is your plan to deal with them? Deport them all? If so, how do you plan on doing that if it is different than Senator Rubio?

Juris Imprudent said...

When you start talking about deporting people in the millions

There are much better alternatives to deportation you know. You could start with not allowing people to so easily enter the country. Or we could return to the more or less open border policy we had prior to WWII.

GuardDuck said...


What is your plan to deal with them? Deport them all? If so, how do you plan on doing that if it is different than Senator Rubio?


When I asked you what your plan is, you reply that you support Rubio's plan.

I replied the same.

Now you ask again what my plan is? Are you stupid?