It's quite an amusing thing to get into a discussion with a conservative these days. As the eyes turn wild with paranoia and fear, the mouth begins to froth. Screams of "statism" and "liberal fascists" begin to be heard as the explanation (fully based on logic and facts...not!) of how all liberals are on one giant power crab is heard at very loud tone.
"That bitch in the House!!!!"
was the first comment from my Uncle Bill when the subject of politics came up. Yeah, good thing the right doesn't lead with their feelings.
But the power grab thing has always cracked me up. Juxtapose what the right says about the twirling moustache liberals thirst for power with a recent statement from Harry "Milktoast" Reid.
We’re leaning towards talking about a public option.
Wow. I am overwhelmed by his Hitleresque statements and tactics. He's a comin' to git ya! Hide your guns and children...
27 comments:
"That bitch in the house" is actually par for the course for rhetoric on this blog over the years. I had to go back to early August of this year on here to find any discussion on actual proposed legislation. Seems like you are having a hard time transitioning out of opposition mode that you were in for 5 years. I guess I'll put forth my tiny, humble request for the 7th time - I'd like you, blk, torch, downtown, sara, or kennedydem to tell me what is great about any of the 3 major pieces of legislation that we are looking at right now in this country - the stimulus bill, the cap and trade bill, or the Baucus bill. I'm really starting to think you don't want to debate issues or legislation anymore.
(cue statements about the right, palin, bush (aka people who aren't in office anymore) in 3...2...1...(throw in some insults toward me in for good measure...it will give you all something to talk about besides what matters - policy))
Mark already did that a while back, last. Did you fall asleep in class? He spent a whole week talking about legislation.
I think it is relevant to talk about the insanity of the right. They make a comment about something and the next thing you know, policy and personnel change. Take the recent debate about the public option. As Michael Moore has said, THAT'S the compromise. The fact that we are even debating this point is due to the right's hysteria, emotion, and complete disregard for facts.
It's not fear, Mark. The right is just plugging along with the same old game: sabotaging the Democrats to prevent them from accomplishing anything substantive so that the Republicans can win more seats in the next election.
If you listen to Republicans in their more candid moments (like DeMint and Dole), they have always been more interested in their own political agendas than in actually doing something for the American people. All the fear-mongering by the Republicans is just a means to that end. Many of them don't want to deal reasonably because any reasonable compromise with Obama represents defeat to the Republicans.
There's no question that a major overhaul of health care is needed. There is too much overhead in its basic administration due to the presence of the insurance companies. They provide no useful function in the current scheme of things. They claim to be a check on rising costs, yet since the health insurance companies have been doing their thing, costs have risen 10-20% a year, while inflation in general has been almost flat. No matter what other factors are involved, the insurance companies have totally failed to contain costs. Any other industry that did so poorly would be out of business if they had that kind of overhead. But since the insurance industry is nothing but overhead, it just means more profit for them.
I'm not particularly happy with the bills we have now. I'd rather have real reform, where employers get out of the business of insuring their employees altogether and everyone buys health care directly. The current system provides perverse incentives for all involved, because the employers are the real customers of the insurance companies, not the employees, yet the employees are the recipients of the care. It just doesn't make sense. No one has any direct incentive to reduce costs: employers get a tax break for providing coverage which means the incentives are skewed all throughout the system.
Because companies get tax breaks, people who don't work for companies are paying for the insurance for people who do through higher taxes. It's not fair, and you'd think Republicans would be the first to complain about it.
But that's not going to go away quickly because there are too many entrenched interests. So we need to take this reform in a step-wise fashion. The bills we have now represent an improvement, by making sure everyone has access, people aren't denied coverage for pre-existing conditions, and they can't jack up your rates arbitrarily. Over time people will wonder why the hell it works this way, when it could be made more efficient. At some point insurance companies will have had time to reorganize things, having seen the writing on the wall, and additional changes will occur that will bring us to a more rational system.
It's unreasonable to expect everything to happen at once. Incremental change for such an important sector of the economy is most prudent. Even though I despise the way the insurance companies operate, I realize that legislating them out of business would be disastrous (as well as impossible). We'll just have to take the time needed to make them actually perform their supposed function, or gradually ease them out of the system.
"Did you fall asleep"
"I think it is relevant to talk about the insanity..."
"the rights hysteria, emotion..."
Thanks for telling us everything you know about cap and trade, and throwing in an insult. Just as predicted.
Then the next post...
"The right..."
"Sabotaging the democrats..." (that veto-proof majority you all have being sabotaged again huh?)
"fear mongering"
"more profit"
....and the closest somebody got was "I'm not particularly happy with the bills we have now".
Not one word about the specifics of the stimulus bill, cap and trade, or the Baucus bill.
I got the words "the right" 3 times from you guys...just as predicted. Time to bring up Dick Cheney.
Last, is the post regarding Phillip Spooner from last week also "par for the rhetoric on this blog?"
Mark is actually too nice, in my opinion, given how much the people you have supported fucked up this country. I think your problem would best be solved less by chastising Mark and trying to make him seem something that he is not and more by addressing the problems in your own party which are, in fact, still fucking up this country.
Last, it seems to me like you are the one actually avoiding the argument. BLK brought up several pertinent points related to the health care debate and you chose to look only at what you wanted to see.
BLK, I realize that we need to be patient but what sort of time frame do you anticipate all of this taking? The bills all have a start date of 2011. Even two years seems too long.
"the people you have supported fucked up this country"
"I think your problem would best be solved..."
"problems in your own party which are, in fact, still fucking up this country."
Neither one of you wants to talk policy either. Just as predicted, more insults.
35 minutes ago on msnbc.com - WASHINGTON - Majority Leader Harry Reid says health care legislation headed to the Senate floor will include an option for government-run insurance.
So much for the statement Mark quoted this morning from Harry Reid.
I'm not avoiding anything next. I've talked plenty on here about health care - go back to March of 07 on this blog and see the comment section of the "support the tro...er" as well as the comment sections of the various posts from Aug 3 - Aug 9 about the health care bill itself on this blog, I talked plenty about health care then.
I even posted the details of the stimulus bill on here and got no responses then either. blk may bring up pertinent points, I posted the actual language in the bill. I guess you all must really think those 8000 earmarks are the key to stimulating the economy.
One more thing I was wondering, can any of you critical thinkers define what "saved a job" means?
Until you admit mistakes, last, policy can't be discussed. I'm not holding my breath since no one on the right will ever cop to anything.
Their bullshit is part of the policy debate as well.
Dick, I know last personally and he has moderated over the years. That being said, last, I think once you set your mind to something, that's it. I could put up a post every day from now until Christmas discussing policy and cheering people on, as I did last week with Phillip Spooner or the one about increased volunteerism in the armed forces which was basically thankful that we have the president we do.
Now, if I put up one post on Dec. 26th regarding the completely fucking obvious truth about the right, this blog sucks, we don't talk about policy, I'm just as divisive as the right yadda yadda yadda. You have set your mind now. There will be no convincing you so I'm just going to continue to post as I see fit.
Regarding Harry Reid, he made an announcement. So what? Has there been a vote? Has the bill been signed into law? Has the House put in their two cents? As far as I see, it's just more talk from the most boring man on the planet. I'd like to see Russ Feingold be Majority Leader. It would be a whole different ball game with him in charge.
You wouldn't like it.
I'm learning so much about the Baucus bill in this thread. Keep it up.
Somebody asks you all a SIMPLE question like "What part of the stimulus bill will create jobs?" or "How would you define Saving a Job?" and nobody has an answer. First, demand other people admit mistakes and then say there is no point in answering any questions anybody has of you regarding what the folks you voted for are doing as we speak.
Damn right policy can't be discussed.
This post isn't about your questions, last. It's about Mark's idea that Sen. Reid's milktoast attitude about health care reform and how he has let the loonies on the right sway him. Perhaps your questions would be more appropriate for a stimulus thread or a jobs thread.
Sara, good luck finding a jobs thread. There was a mention of the economy and the stimulus a month or so ago but rld has the gall to ask if people were talking about tarp or the stimulus bill and rld got no response. Kinda makes ya think that questions aren't appropriate at all!
I'd like to know what some on here think, on the heels of seeing the latest Michael Moore movie, about the large financial institutions on Wall Street handling the upcoming worlds largest commodities market - selling and trading of carbon permits from the cap and trade bill. Wall Street investment firms are now poised to reap huge windfalls from the sale of carbon permits that will accompany the legislation...just imagine the profits when carbon trading becomes a sanctioned business. All this time, I thought people had learned their lesson about creating fancy financial instruments out of nothing and allowing wall street to bandy them about. Will carbon derivatives be any different? A commodity being made out of thin air...the govt/wall street creating a value where none existed before. Hell at least mortgage securities had an asset behind them.
A business with no products and no obligations relying on derivative securities and hedge funds to keep the money flowing to the govt and wall street banks. Sounds charming. (cue reply about "what conservatives think")
On Tuesday, March 31 on this blog, we were told - "My initial response was that it is quite foolish of anyone, regardless of their political stripes, to simply ignore the effects of any administration's policies (bad or good) and pretend they never happened."
My how times have changed.
Here's some info on some of last's questions if anyone is interested...
http://factcheck.org/2009/10/cap-and-trade-green-jobs-or-job-killer/
Arguments to be made on both sides.
Appeal to authority!! Yay!!
First off, the DEMS have majorities and the WH. They don't need a single fucking Republican vote. Nada. Not one. Not even a goddamn kind word. Even have the supermajority in the Senate to avoid a filibuster (not that the Repubs there have even threatened one). All you people do is fucking bitch about the EVIL, stupid right. You might question SOME of your assumptions since it is the CENTER of the Dem party that has raised the most serious questions/objections on health care at least, and has refused to go along with the Pelosi lurch to the left. It might just be that they realize they weren't elected by a groundswell of left-liberalism that you all like to delude yourselves about. Or perhaps you are just warming up for the wailing and gnashing of teeth come the mid-term elections.
And blk I agree, there is no reason to tie health insurance to employment - except the unions won't give that up as bargaining leverage. It isn't the right you have to sell on that one brother.
Not quite sure where you are coming from, last, but the link I provided had quite a bit of information regarding the pros and cons of your questions.
In regards to health care, I have only been reading this blog a short time and it seems to me that Mark is correct when says that most of this country is more to the right. That's why they can't get a majority vote in the Senate or the House. They might have a D next to their name but that doesn't mean they are liberal. The people that Mark bitches about still control the debate.
My comment was not directed at the content of the link. My comment was directed at the content of your post. Must not be able to show us knuckle draggers the light regarding the cap and trade bill yourself so you have to post a link.
Do "they control" the debate or are "liberals losing" the debate?
The people that Mark bitches about still control the debate.
That is fucking hysterical. The Repubs, even when out of POWER, still manipulate the Dems (who, did I mention DON'T NEED A SINGLE FUCKING REPUBLICAN VOTE). Someone needs to lay off whatever it is they are consuming - the brain damage is becoming a concern.
Well, they do, juris because the Democrats operate under the false assumption that they can win by swaying people and getting more votes. The base, however, operates with one essential premise in mind: destroy the enemy. And they use everything in their power to do so (fear, hatred, anger, violence). The Dems handle things in an uber milk toasty way and that's why they have lost ground in this debate because they have given in to the base's lies.
I don't think they are losing, though, last. We are going to get health care. There are going to be stricter regulations. Consumers are going to have more choice. There will be some sort of public option. It's an incremental victory as blk mentions.
Pelosi is now calling the public option the "consumer option". Renaming things isn't what you do when you are winning the debate. So it isn't whats in the bills your party is putting forth, the democrats are just handling "things" the wrong way. Those darn "things", always getting in the way.
I agree with you. The Dems are handling things the wrong way. Their PR is horrible...public option sounds like a urinal at a train station. It should have been Medicare for all. It is tough, though, when you are trying to explain something that has more nuance and complexity to it...especially something that is a more positive thing like better health care for everyone.
It is so much easier to explain the fearful negative which is why the base succeeds.
Well, they do, juris
Oh, boohoo Phyllis. Jaysus, would you try growing a pair. The CENTER of the Dem Party is the one holding this up, not the Repubs. The Repubs should be held accountable for everything they did WHILE in power, not whined about when they are the minority. The govt is a Dem sandbox right now, and they have demonstrated Will Rogers' old joke that he didn't belong to an organized political party, he was a Democrat.
Not ONE fucking Republican vote is required M, not ONE. If you can't grasp that, there is no discussion.
"public option sounds like a urinal at a train station"
Sounds about right.
Yo, M, here's the left wishing to eviscerate the center of the party - in other words, we'd rather be the purist minority than a compromising majority.
Actually, what the dipshit probably believes is that 90% of the country is left of center and that the 'centrists' are irrelevant. Good luck with that.
This may come as a shock to some but I want better health care for everyone too. I'm just not convinced that what I am reading in the new health care bill unveiled yesterday will get us to your desired utopia. I'm not against reform...I'm against the reforms the folks you all voted for have put in their bill. I'm guessing that the reason why we aren't getting any good explanations from any democrats about the specifics of the bill is because they know exactly what the nuances and complexities of the bill are like taxing innovative medical devices - my company is just throwing a giant party over that one...Medtronic is going to join us in 30 minutes!!!
I'm going to spend this weekend eating chocolate and reveling in the fact that I'm on the "side" that controls the debate, even when voted out of office.
It wasn't named right...the PR is bad...the complexities are too much for some...explanation is difficult - it's everything except the content of the bill. If anyone can explain how taxing medical innovation leads to better, cheaper health care for all, I'm listening (btw, I already know the current system is flawed, thanks).
I am against any "reform" or program where the claim is made that there is no downside. No one is talking about what we lose with any of these proposals. Anyone who tries to tell me that there isn't SOME trade-off involved is a lyin' SOB. I wouldn't believe it coming from a used car salesman, and I sure as hell will not believe it coming from a politician.
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