Basically the pattern goes something like this:
1. Mark offers a viewpoint backed up by facts.
2. Some of the readers, many of which basically belong to a cult (more on that in the coming days), don't like it.
3. Rather than disprove it, they call me "stupid," "Marxadelphia" and a "liar."
4. Following this is a seemingly endless series of comments which "prove" that I have "been beaten." They go on in such perpetuity that one really has to wonder...if I am "wrong," why do they keep talking about it?
5. (and my favorite one) I'm secretly a Marxist who wants to cede my rights to a collectivist government.
This pattern, however, is part of a much larger one which I will illustrate through an update of the Centerpoint Energy Meter Inspection project that was the subject of my last post. For those of you who don't know, Centerpoint is the company that I purchase gas from to heat my house. They sent me a card, which I showed in my last post, which ordered me to allow them access to my house otherwise they would take legal action. It is the only company that I can get heat from in my area. I do, of course, have the choice of burning wood in my house but I think that most of us can agree that's not really "the free market" now, is it?
Take a look at this column from last December.
Gas Co. May Get Court Orders For Meter Inspections
Now, in my first column I was told that it was actually the government driving these inspections, not Centerpoint, due to safety and regulation. While it is true that there is a regulation that Centerpoint Energy must follow federal laws regarding safety, I'm wondering why the company themselves has to get the court order. If the government is the one doing the forcing, why don't they have them already? And where are the fines that we heard would happen if Centerpoint didn't follow the law?
To me, the company is the one driving this show, not the government. Further proof of this can be seen in the last line of the column.
WCCO-TV also checked with Xcel Energy, which has about 600 customers with indoor meters that still need to be checked. At this time, an Xcel spokesperson says the company is not considering court orders.
What? Why? Now, I was assured by several commenters here that if companies weren't compliant that BIG BROTHER was going to descend into their offices and nationalize them. So, why is Xcel Energy being so lackadaisical?
Because the government isn't the all powerful beast members of the cult claim it to be. They might make regulations but enforcing them? Forget it. It's not going to happen. In fact, I'd be willing to bet--just like Xcel is betting--that the government is so inefficient and weakened right now that this regulation would probably not be enforced in all of our lifetimes.
Thus, we see how this larger pattern works...a pattern of propaganda, if you will...as the comments start to roll in on this post. I will be told that while I see a company obtaining court orders, it's actually the government driving this whole thing in one massive power grab. I will be told that while I actually only have one company to choose from for my heating needs, I really do have a choice and am not being forced by any legalized monopoly to buy their product. Again, the government will be blamed. I will be told to not pay attention to Xcel Energy as that is not relevant. And so on and so on...This is but a small example of how the cult works.
(cue theremin)
President Obama has taken away your hard earned money through tax increases (even though he has cut taxes for 95 percent of working families)....President Obama has taken away your hard earned money through tax increases....President Obama has taken away your hard earned money through tax increases.....President Obama has taken away your hard earned money through tax increases....
The question does remain, though, why does Centerpoint want to get into my home? No doubt, safety is a concern. Knowing corporations the way I do, I'm fairly certain there is another reason and that will be the subject of Part Two.
25 comments:
1. Mark offers a viewpoint backed up by facts.
That was exactly where you failed in the original post. You had NO facts. All you had was viewpoint.
I haven't read the rest of this yet, but when you are that wrong right at the start I'm not very hopeful that the teacher has learned any thing.
which ordered me
No they asked you, quite nicely. If they ORDERED you, that means they (themselves, the corporate bastards) could FORCE you (without anyone else's intervention) to do something that you did not want to do. If they didn't respect YOUR property and privacy rights, they would've kicked in the door, knocked you around a little and then inspected the meter.
Even the POLICE need a court order to invade your home (without your consent), let alone a fucking corporation.
agree that's not really "the free market"
True. The govt granted them a monopoly on providing that service, so it is not a free market.
What is that saying about a stopped clock?
I'm wondering why the company themselves has to get the court order
Are you really? I mean REALLY? Because if you really are, you are setting yourself up for perhaps the most epic fail of all time.
Honestly M - this does make you look unbelievably stupid. After the last go round I can't believe you want to take more abuse - that you actually ASK for it.
one massive power grab
Holy shit. This whole example has NOTHING to do with over-bearing govt power, let alone abusive corporate power. You really are doubling down on stupid.
The govt HAS the [legitimate] power to issue an order FORCING your compliance with the inspections - for your safety and the safety of your neighbors.
Even the POLICE need a court order to enter your home (without your consent). You can't SERIOUSLY be arguing that Centerpoint can do what the police cannot.
And for all of your mewling about corporate (or even govt) power, you're still trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. This just isn't an example of abusive corporate power - in any fucking way imaginable. It's like you aren't stupid - you are deranged to believe that it is.
I will be told that while I actually only have one company to choose from for my heating needs
Yes, and WHO is telling you that - the free market? Or the govt that granted the company a monopoly?
legalized monopoly
Who legalized that monopoly M? Did the company grant ITSELF a legal monopoly? No, it didn't.
How can you be this obtuse?
Again, the government will be blamed.
Blamed for WHAT? That you can't be an asshole and put your house and your neighbors at risk of a gas explosion?
why does Centerpoint want to get into my home?
Please, don't do it. Even I can't stand to see you make a bigger fool of yourself over this - and I'm the one that goaded you into it. You are really making me feel bad that someone's children are under your tutelage - because you are about a half-step away from being another Andrew Stack. You are THAT detached from reality.
I just keep watching this train wreck for entertainment value but it is sad.
Yeah, I guess it is pretty ironic to be called part of a cult by someone on the edge of batshit insanity.
Juris---why does this particular issue seem to raise your ire so much? 6 comments? Already?
Mark did have facts--one of which stated "If you do not call immediately, Centerpoint Energy will be required to take appropriate legal action to obtain access." Now they are talking about obtaining court orders. This is not the government, it clearly says Center Point Energy.
And you don't see any force here? I do. If all that Center Point wants to do is get in for safety reasons, that's fine. But that's still via government regulation which is your assertion and then it's ok? I'm confused. Does this mean it's ok in this instance for the government to enter your home?
Wow, when I first saw 9 comments here I had no idea that 7 of them would be juris.
juris, I don't think you are part of a cult. I have a great deal of respect for your opinion. I would also add last and pl into the exclusion from cult status. Where all of you fail, though, is to recognize that there is one and it is growing more powerful every day. In fact, right now the cult can say anything and tens of millions believe them. If the Dems or progressives say anything, no one believes them.
Jeff, who is Center Point going to get a court order from? Another company? Or the govt? Why are they even bothering - is it not to comply with a federal regulation? Why M sees this as a corporation abusing him is beyond me - do you think he is being abused here, and if so, what exactly is that abuse? It irks me because it is patently stupid, worse than some bizarre religious belief. If I lived where M teaches, I would want him out of any classroom my children are in - because to believe this is fucking nuts.
If all that Center Point wants to do is get in for safety reasons, that's fine.
Do you have any evidence of another reason they want to do this? By all means, put forth such evidence - just don't give me a bunch of bullshit rhetoric about corporations ruling over us (as that was all I got from anybody last go round).
Remember, M's whole premise is that corporations wield more power, and abuse it more frequently than does govt.
First off, I don't even see abusive govt power here, let alone corporate/business. Since a gas leak represents a danger to not just your own house, but your neighbors as well, I don't see the govt requiring triennial safety inspections as burdensome. Does that mean I'm really not part of the cult? Or am I just not part of the cult that believes that all businesses (or is it just corporations?) are evil?
If the Dems or progressives say anything, no one believes them.
That's because right at the moment, you are nuttier than any right-wing fruitcake I can think of.
Seriously, if you think you've made a plausible argument, and I'm just picking nits, or that I have no idea what I'm talking about - your cheese has done slid right off your cracker.
I think you're off-base here, Mark. I doubt that Centerpoint really wants to enter your house; there's nothing in it for them.
Everyone is putting in wireless equipment for gas meters and water meters. In the long run it's much cheaper for them to do it. They probably want to get in and install the transmitter so they don't have to bother you anymore.
On the other hand, it is probably not the case that Big Bad government is forcing the gas company to do useless inspections. My guess is that the gas companies demanded the ability to do this because they want to be able to read meters so that they can charge you for the gas you use.
But of course, because corporations operate completely behind the scenes, we can never really know who is really behind the passage of laws. Corporations hire independent lobbyists, who talk to lawmakers behind closed doors. And of course, lobbyists are very frequently also involved with raising campaign contributions (usually with "bundling"). Depending on what state you live in you may or may not be able to find out how much corporations are spending on lobbying your representatives.
So, while the corporations don't actually pay politicians money to get laws passed, they put them in contact with people who have interests in getting certain laws passed, and have access to other people who have money that they want to give politicians.
So, none of this is illegal or bribery: it's just the good old boy network in operation. It's probably not even unethical. But it smacks of immorality.
That was the sort of "troubling" relationship John McCain had with that woman lobbyist. She worked for communications firms that had pending legislation before McCain's committee, but she was John McCain's "friend" because she also helped him raise campaign funds.
Seems like some more regulation of lobbyists is in order: if you trying to influence legislation, you shouldn't be able to also raise funds for the legislators you're lobbying. It's an inherent conflict of interest.
And I still can't figure out why conservatives think you can trust corporations more than you can trust government.
Take, for example, the recent Toyota recall. It's been known for years that something was up with those cars, but government was unable to do anything about it. Finally it got so bad they could force Toyota into a recall. Without a government agency to regulate highway safety and track these accidents Toyota would have been able to cover up this whole thing.
For literally decades cigarette companies just stood there and lied about the health effects of cigarettes. Government issued report after report about how lung cancer basically was non-existent without smoking, yet for more than 30 years Big Tobacco could still bamboozle Americans into thinking that there was still "confusion" about smoking and disease.
Corporations -- especially foreign-based ones like Toyota -- have no responsibility to the American people. They only care about the money. They don't care about getting reelected. If they hide the fact that a bunch of Americans were killed by their products they can in all likelihood just blame some nameless engineer who designed faulty brakes or accelerator pedals and then retire to Macau or the Caymans.
And if corporations do get caught doing something bad (like, say, poisoning the aquifer you use for drinking water), how do you expect to hold them responsible for their crimes if government is so weak that it cannot regulate them? Sue them? The corporations are taking care of that; with the Supreme Court's recent decision companies can officially buy their own judges.
Our government is responsible to us. It ain't perfect, but it's obvious with the swings we've seen between Democratic and Republican majorities in the Congress over the last 30 years that we can and do make a difference in who represents us and the kinds of things they do.
Government needs to big and powerful enough to counter the potential threats we face. That means we need a government that can stand up to China, Iran, Russia, Al Qaeda, Toyota, BP, Exxon, OPEC, and all the other bad actors we face.
If Grover Norquist manages to drown government in a bathtub, he'll be able to drown his political and corporate enemies there as well.
blk But it smacks of immorality.
Really - inspecting gas lines? You'd rather just take your chances? Or would you all scream bloody murder if this wasn't done and your house (and family) was blown to kingdom come?
Are all of you people off your damn rockers?
"1. Mark offers a viewpoint backed up by facts."
I just couldn't get past this line without falling out of my chair because I was laughing so hard.
"3. Rather than disprove it, they call me "stupid," "Marxadelphia" and a "liar.""
You just keep proving that "the time for reasoned discourse has passed" every time you post stuff like this that proves you stuffed what you didn't like down the memory hole.
And new words for the Marxaphasia Dictionary of Muddled Meanings:
facts
cult
disprove
power
secretly
"I will be told that while I see a company obtaining court orders,"
Okay. Here's an idea. Instead of us telling you, why don't YOU tell US what a "court order" is, who has the authority to issue a court order, and who has the authority (power) to enforce that order. Or should we add "court order" to the word list?
Yeah, but would the court order be issued without being initialized by Center Point? Given the fact that our Congress is terrified and immobile at present do any of you honestly think that they are in any way shape or form driving this buggy?
"Yeah, but would the court order be issued without being initialized by Center Point?"
No, but Center Point would be held liable for any event occurring from inaction, if not fined outright.
Look, kids, this ain't that fuckin' hard:
1. The government requires this company to do these inspections
2. The company has no right or ability force itself in your home to do these inspections. No physical force, no emotional force, or any other bullshit definition of force you want to give to try and confuse the issue.
3. The company must therefore ask government for permission to enter homes to do these inspections which they are required by government to do.
4. At no point, in any of the above three steps, is the company able to enter your home or to force you to do anything with asking government to mandate it.
If you believe that government has the right to mandate inspections to deal with such safety concerns or not is irrelevant.
So where is the corporate use of force? Specifically, where is the corporate abuse of force?
The most a company can do is ask government to leverage force against you. That's the same thing I can do to anyone here - through our tort system and our basic court of law.
The government has a monopoly on the legal use of force.
I REPEAT:
The government has a monopoly on the legal use of force.
Me thinks your synapses are not firing on all cylinders today, Mark.
"That's the same thing I can do to anyone here - through our tort system and our basic court of law."
I just want to emphasize this point.
A N Y O N E can ask the government for a court order. (Restraining orders and PFAs are two very common examples of such.) It is a request for the government to exercise its power to enforce laws in a particular situation. This isn't a "special power" of corporations.
In this company's case, they actually have less power than the average person, because if they choose not to request court orders to carry out the inspection, the government can eventually decide that they are not doing enough to do the government mandated inspections, and exercise their (government) power against the company. In other words, an average individual has the option of choosing to never request a court order, the company does not have that choice, they only have some leeway on when to request the order should the homeowner refuse voluntary access.
So again, what is a "court order"? Who has the authority/power to issue one? Who has the authority/power to enforce one? Can the company do anything (anything legal, that is) to gain access to your house on their own (without asking the government to invoke government power)?
M, I have to give you an A for tenacity. You are repeatedly defending an obviously indefensible position, and are getting taken to the woodshed over it. Again. While there may indeed be examples of corporate abuse of power out there in the US, this sadly for you, is not one of them. If this is the best you can do as an example of such, I'm beginning to think there may actually be NO other examples available to you. Very sad really -yet amusing at the same time. You have ridden this one down in flames, and you refuse to get off.
I'm wondering if M isn't a termite - cause he sure seems to love the woodshed.
I have to wonder why Marxy doesn't know the answer to this question:
"They go on in such perpetuity that one really has to wonder...if I am "wrong," why do they keep talking about it?"
The answer should be obvious, but for the terminally clueless:
It's because you're so obviously wrong about it that it makes your biases clear for all to see. It's a huge, glaring spotlight exposing dogmatic ideology taking precedence over simple and obvious facts. It's so obvious, that even people who usually agree with you are asking you to admit you're wrong on this because it makes your side look stupid.
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