Contributors

Sunday, January 15, 2012

Sunday's Message

11 million hits on YouTube so far. This one is making a lot of people nervous.

Good.

40 comments:

rld said...

Views? Then Lady Gaga videos must really be making people nervous.

Mark Ward said...

Actually, she is with her stance on gay rights and her popularity:)

A. Noni Mouse said...

Actually I think that was pretty good.

So what do you think is meant by these verses?

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
— John 14:15

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
— James 2:14–17

Note that the young man in the video pretty much made this point about taking care of the poor.

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
— John 8:34

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
— Hebrews 10:26–27

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
— Romans 6:1–2

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
— Romans 6:15–16

“All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
— 1 Corinthians 6:12–15

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
— 2 Peter 1:5–10

for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

— Hebrews 5:13–6:1

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
— 1 Corinthians 3:11–15

A. Noni Mouse said...

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”
— Matthew 28:19–20

Notice that Jesus didn't say "converts".

Like ravens we have gathered around the carcass of cheap grace. From it we have imbibed the poison which has killed the following of Jesus among us. The doctrine of pure grace experienced an unprecedented deification. The pure doctrine of grace became its own God, grace itself. Luther’s teachings are quoted everywhere, but twisted from their truth into self-delusion…. A people became Christian, became Lutheran, but at the cost of discipleship, at an all-too-cheap price. Cheap grace had won.

The call goes forth, and is at once followed by the response of obedience. …. It displays not the slightest interest in the psychological reason for a man’s religious decisions. And why? For the simple reason that the cause behind the immediate following of call by response is Jesus Christ Himself.

Christianity without discipleship is always Christianity without Christ. It remains an abstract idea, a myth which has a place for the Fatherhood of God, but omits Christ as the living Son. … There is trust in God, but no following of Christ. He wants to follow, but feels obliged to insist on his own terms to the level of human understanding. The disciple places himself at the Master’s disposal, but at the same time retains the right to dictate his own terms. But then discipleship is no longer discipleship, but a program of our own to be arranged to suit ourselves, and to be judged in accordance with the standards of rational ethic.

— Dietrich Bonhoeffer

You claim to trust God. What does God's nature prompt you to do?

Mark Ward said...

In my view, it all comes down to John 14:12..."Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

If you believe in Jesus, you will do greater works than he did. Now what are those works? Well it starts with the fact that God has forgiven our wickedness and will remember our sins no more (Heb. 8:12) The nature of God is now a loving one, not a vengeful one, as we are now in a period of Grace. Again, because of Jesus' sacrifice. (1 John 4: 7-11, 16; 2 John 1: 6)

So, it starts with love. From there we can see that it's the ten commandments + 1...The Golden Rule. This leads us to serving those who are less fortunate in our society and showing love as God has commanded. Even though we are saved by our belief in Christ, God will ultimately judge us on how we serve the lessers of our world. Now, what does John 14:12 mean in light of this?

Our belief in Christ and acceptance of walking on the path of love means that we are going to do greater works than his...think of the possibilities! Indeed, we are already doing many of them.

A. Noni Mouse said...

From there we can see that it's the ten commandments

You mean like this one?

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
— Exodus 20:17

A. Noni Mouse said...

Or how about this one?

“You shall not steal.”
— Exodus 20:15

Or how about this one?

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
— Exodus 20:16

Misrepresenting your opponent's position repeatedly (those voices in your head) violates this one.

A. Noni Mouse said...

What does Jesus mean by "the works I have been doing?"

Mark Ward said...

Well, that's your opinion on the misrepresentation. My view is that I'm simply repeating back what people are saying. Don't shoot the messenger. If you don't like the message, than criticize the source, not me.

But you are correct that I fall short of loving thy neighbor, doing unto others, and turning the other cheek. I'm flawed just like everyone else and fall short of the life that Christ commands us to lead.

What does Jesus mean by "the works I have been doing?"

Well, that's where the debate usually begins. To begin with, it means spreading the word...grace, love, peace that comes with the belief in Jesus. Then it goes to serving the less fortunate and accepting people for who they are and loving them anyway. This is where I have the most trouble. I think that being tolerant of intolerance makes one a coward. So, if there is a sin I am most guilty of, it's this one.

Given our capabilities, works means so much more and, indeed, greater than what Christ did just as He predicted. We are heading in a direction right now that could very well end world hunger. Disease , while still a large concern in the world, is down. Violence is down. Prosperity is up.

What about beyond this? Suppose I told you that the current generation of children and young adults may have the possibility, thanks to coming medical advances, of being able to choose how long they live (aside from accidents, of course). What do you think about that? These too are greater works than these.

It's my belief that God and Jesus do not want us to stagnate as a people and be their slaves. Like any parent, they wants us to achieve greater heights as we grow. While we may never be the master of the universe, we certainly could be the master of this planet...another example of greater works than these.

A. Noni Mouse said...

Well, that's your opinion on the misrepresentation.

How Dare you!?! HOW, GOD DAMN DARE YOU!?!

When the author of something you're misrepresenting points out that "no, that's not what I said", then you have misrepresented them. You do not get to be the arbiter of what someone else actually said and meant! You have no capability or authority to make such a claim. Only God can do that. Are you claiming to be God?

90% of your whole site is misrepresentations. You impute motives to others with absolutely no justification. You accuse large groups of the crimes of a single person. You even accuse groups of the crimes of people who are not members of that group. You pretend to know what someone is "really thinking" when you don't have the ability to read minds; and are wildly inaccurate to boot.

Look at your blog, Mark. 90% of your posts are of the "conservatives are evil" variety, totally incapable of doing anything good even while you claim Democrats are the cause of good actually done by conservatives.

You do this every, single, damn, day. And you've been doing it for YEARS!! That's where the "Voices in your head" thing came from.

juris imprudent said...

My view is that I'm simply repeating back what people are saying.

I guess you really believe that, which is even sadder than if you realized what a lie it is. A reflective and moral man would take that criticism to heart, for he would want to improve himself, not sit in ignorance and smug self-righteousness.

A. Noni Mouse said...

smug self-righteousness

You know, I've understood that term and seen it misused and abused for years. But this is the first time I've ever really seen it demonstrated in pure, undiluted form.

Mark Ward said...

Juris and Noni, I offer links and quotes that directly support my assessment of people on the right. Again, if you don't like them, then change the way your side does business (juris, when i say "your side" I mean libertarian not necessarily conservative).

This is all pretty typical, though, when you think about it. For example, Noni here put up a quote from Forbes in another thread in which it was intimated that entitlements via taxes are "picking your neighbor's pockets." This is the kind of crap we hear and see all the time from the right and it's a flat out lie. I call you on it and you blow a bowel. Same ol' shit.

Look at your blog, Mark. 90% of your posts are of the "conservatives are evil" variety, totally incapable of doing anything good even while you claim Democrats are the cause of good actually done by conservatives.

Conservatives aren't evil but they are willfully ignorant and intolerant on the whole. If it helps, a large portion of this base used to be Democrats:) Democrats aren't perfect but I challenge you in this thread to make a list of Republican accomplishments and place it next to Democratic accomplishments. The big ones (winning wars, social security, medicare, civil rights, equality for women, foreign policy, balancing budgets, education) are all in the D column. I mean, can you name three significant accomplishments by the GOP since Ike left office?

juris imprudent said...

Again, if you don't like them, then change the way your side does business

I don't represent "a side". You know, like thinking beyond "us versus them" or "your with us or with the terrorists". You love to claim that you see more than black and white - then you disprove it every other time you open your mouth.

Just like when you say you aren't a partisan hack, then pile partisan bullshit on top to prove the point.

Seriously, a moral and reflective man would deeply consider this criticism - not immediately and reflexively justify himself.

A. Noni Mouse said...

I offer links and quotes

Quotes like "Do you hate taxes? Hate Government? Hate regulations?" Or how about commentors supposedly repeating Rush Limbaugh "verbatim". Or quotes like the one from Reagan's speech which you distorted into saying the opposite of what he actually said. Or links to "racial spitting" where you ignored the fact that the person on the receiving end even admitted that it was no such thing. Or the "links" to racial epithets that didn't happen. Or links to Kevin's site as you distort something said there.

And that doesn't even include crap like one of us writing something and you misrepresenting it right back, right to our face! For example, just yesterday, you blatantly misrepresented Z's comment as saying he called Al Jazeera "moderate", when he did no such thing.

This isn't an occasional mistake, it's standard practice with you.

A. Noni Mouse said...

(Oops. Posted too soon.)

Do you honestly think you can stand before God and tell Him that you did not bear false witness?!?

Mark Ward said...

The problem is, juris, that tolerance of intolerance is cowardice. The conservative movement in this country has become so awful in so many ways that it's honestly hard for me to keep up. As Mike Lofgren noted, they have become an apocalyptic cult. They are filled with hatred, anger, paranoia and fear. This includes the wide swath of libertarians, evangelicals, and old guard doofuses. The more examples I cite, the angrier you and the others get. You turn it around on me and say it's my fault..ignoring that the source of these problems isn't me. It's them. In short, you and the others are in a massive state of denial. This is largely due to the hubris that's an integral part of your ideology...admit no fault to a Democrat for therein lies complete and utter doom. It is ALWAYS his fault (in this case, mine).

I recognize that you aren't technically a member of the right and lean more libertarian, hence the reason I made the comment above. But you defend their positions frequently and support some of their free market fantasies. You and the others are rabid in your criticism of the president and other Democrats, not really liking anything he has done even though his accomplishments are clear and the results good. I can't think of a better description of you folks than this.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/15/andrew-sullivan-how-obama-s-long-game-will-outsmart-his-critics.html

I'll be talking it about in the next few days so here's your preview.

It’s not that I don’t understand the critiques of Barack Obama from the enraged right and the demoralized left. It’s that I don’t even recognize their description of Obama’s first term in any way. The attacks from both the right and the left on the man and his policies aren’t out of bounds. They’re simply—empirically—wrong.

Mark Ward said...

Do you honestly think you can stand before God and tell Him that you did not bear false witness?!?

You mean like calling the president a socialist? Or saying that I'm a fascist? Or saying that the Democrats want to create death panels? I'm simply repeating these things back to you guys...things that you have confirmed on several occasions that you believe.

Or how about commentors supposedly repeating Rush Limbaugh "verbatim".

Because they did.

Or quotes like the one from Reagan's speech which you distorted into saying the opposite of what he actually said.

The one where he said that the rich should pay their fair share? So he didn't actually say it? I imagined it?

Or links to Kevin's site as you distort something said there.

You mean where he says that communists have taken over our school system? Or where Detroit is like North Korea and that proves that liberal policies are failures?

Standard practice is you guys scraping the crumbs of your shirts and the corners of your mouth and saying (like my 9 year old) "But we didn't eat the cookies. You did!" So, no, no false witness here and am quite comfortable with my relationship with God in the face of such intolerance.

juris imprudent said...

The problem is, juris

Yes yes of course, the problem is those people out there [handwaving and pointing in a generally rightward direction]. All the faults of the world are over there with them.

You try a little bit to absolve me of associating with such beasts, but your basic black-and-white processing can't handle any shade of gray. Since I'm not with you I must be against you.

I'll say it again, a moral and reflective man would consider the criticism without immediately and reflexively justifying himself.

don said...

Can someone please explain to me what "handwaving" is? I see that line used alot in forum attacks.

A. Noni Mouse said...

don,

"Handwaving" is doing things like bringing up absolute irrelevancies, pretends evidence was offered where none was, meaningless or vague phrases are used as if they are clear and meaningful, or bald assertions are merely reasserted. In short, it's doing everything but putting together a logical argument backed up by evidence.

Or in other words:

insubstantial words, arguments, gestures, or actions used in an attempt to explain or persuade.

A. Noni Mouse said...

Mark, you're about as self reflective as a vampire in a mirror. Even as you're denying your false witness, you engage in it.

I would fisk your comment, but that would mean fisking every damn word in it, and I don't have the time. And clearly it would obviously be a waste of time because at least one of those things was reexplained to you just today (for the 20,000th time), and yet you STILL insist on lying about them.

A. Noni Mouse said...

For anyone that cares about truth, reread the quotes from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, compare them to Mark's response. Then look up who Bonhoeffer was, and why he died to see why Mark's idea of "grace" is so dangerous.

rld said...

Interesting discussion so far. The author of that poem says that Republican does not automatically mean Christian. Only thing is that every chance he gets on here, blk calls Republicans and Christians on their hypocrisy for their sins...as if all Christians are Republicans and all Republicans are Christian. He makes that link all the time.

Secular fervor, i.e., communism and Nazism, slaughtered, tortured and enslaved more people in 50 years than all Europe's religious wars did in the course of centuries.

Communism and Nazism were religion-like in their hold on people, but they were completely secular movements and doctrines. Moreover, communism was violently anti-religious, and Nazism affirmed pre-Christian — what we tend to call "pagan" — values and beliefs.

Mark Ward said...

and I don't have the time.

Perhaps some photos then to illustrate how I am not bearing false witness?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42406957@N04/sets/72157622225596987/show/

Voices in my head, indeed.

rld, good points but you also have to consider that Jefferson, in his poem, is thinking about 2000 years of history. Christianity has had its ups and downs over that time that certainly contained violence. More current history has thankfully seen a shift to peace although the South in the 60s was filled with Christian zealots who were violent.

A. Noni Mouse said...

After sleeping on it, I realized that I let Mark's handwaving distract me from the fact that he did not comment on the verses I quoted; instead he pulled out different verses and commented on them instead. But then I guess ignoring the verses I quoted is a form of comment.

Mark Ward said...

In short, it's doing everything but putting together a logical argument backed up by evidence.

Projection/Flipping. I think you've reached the century mark with that one. I'll add hand waving to the list of other things (I'm stupid, a fascist, a moron, chicken, phrases in latin) that are hauled out when you know what I'm saying is true and you're just pissed that your bubble of willful ignorance has been disrupted.

Regarding your list of verses, I was under the impression that we are all leading towards your question which I answered. I do trust God and his nature, as I explained in the verses, prompts me to to what I described above.

juris imprudent said...

Projection/Flipping

Really M you needn't catalog your own behavior, we all see it. And speaking of impermeable bubbles of ignorance/belief!

A. Noni Mouse said...

Regarding your list of verses, I was under the impression that we are all leading towards your question which I answered.

Nope. I wanted to know what you think those verses mean and what they prompt you to do. Not what other verses mean and prompt you to do.

as I explained in the verses, prompts me to to what I described above.

Last time you hauled those verse out, you essentially used them to justify doing whatever seemed right in your own eyes. In other words, something very much like this:

The world is justified by grace, therefore—because this grace is so serious! because this irreplaceable grace should not be opposed—the Christian should live just like the rest of the world!
— Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Mark Ward said...

The verses don't exist in a vacuum, though, Noni. You have to look at them along with the ones I showed you. If I simply looked at them and ignored the ones I used, the explanation of what God wants me to do is incomplete.

Now, if you'd like to have a discussion on how the Bible contradicts itself, that's a whole other direction we could go. But for now, my view is that you seemed to be very focused on sin. I'm not sure why but it's been my experience that people who focus that much on sin are usually more apt do it. Thus, they need the threat of hellfire to prevent them from having meth fueled gay sex, for example. I don't need that and, although I do sin like all people, my worst transgressions lie in not following the Golden Rule as perfectly as I should and not serving the least among us enough.

The irony is that these people (and I'm not saying necessarily that this is you) have missed the point. The Bible is very clear about what the nature of God is since Christ died for our sins. The instructions regarding sin are simply a part of an overall message which includes all of what I have discussed above.

So, what I'm wondering is this: will you open your mind to doing greater works than Christ, as he instructed? Of will you continue to focus on breaking fellowship with God which really has nothing to do with the bigger picture here?

A. Noni Mouse said...

The verses don't exist in a vacuum

Right back at'cha, buddy!

If I simply looked at them and ignored the ones I used, the explanation of what God wants me to do is incomplete.

Correct. And if you look only at the verses you used and ignored the ones I listed (which is just a subset of similar verses) then your understanding is also incomplete.

So, how do you think they fit together?

…have missed the point. The Bible is very clear about what the nature of God is since Christ died for our sins.

Is that the only aspect there is of God's nature? Absolute forgiveness, mushy love, and nothing else? That is the point.

Mark Ward said...

Well, yes but that's a pretty simplistic way of putting it. We are now in a period of grace due to the sacrifice that Jesus made for our sins. The verses I put up illustrate this and counter the ones that you put up. They do seem to be in contradiction, though, and that's where I think that man's flawed nature comes into play. Men, after all, did write the Bible so there seems to be a lot of information that doesn't quite fit all together.

Giving your thoughts on sin, how does this all fit together for you including the verses that I've listed? More importantly, what about John 14:12?

A. Noni Mouse said...

Here is a thorough discussion of the video, followed up by a conversion with Jefferson (the young man in the video).

A. Noni Mouse said...

BTW, Jefferson also posted a response to the idea you're pushing. Specifically, to Rob Bell's video "Love Wins", which is Rob's argument for your shared idea of cheap grace.

You should watch it.

(I plan to offer a response to how the verses fit together, but that will take some time to write.)

Anonymous said...

The Bible is very clear about what the nature of God is since Christ died for our sins.

The nature of God has never changed.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I do not change.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Our interaction with God may change but he doesn't.

Mark Ward said...

Noni, yeah I saw them both.

It's really not surprising that Jeff is being reflective and accepting as that was the nature of his challenging piece. But therein lies the problem...it's challenging to the status quo which is why, I guess, I don't really see much of that humility coming from Pastor Kevin. He tells Jeff that he will help him alter his message and show where he went wrong. Really? How about the parts where Pastor Kevin went wrong? Or is that not possible?

Pastor Kevin's initial analysis and this follow up are illustrative of the problem with religion-it's OK if you have your views just as long as they are in agreement with me and conform to what has been decided by the institution of religion. If not, then you are misguided and wrong...here, let me help you...and thus, we see the insertion that frustrates me so much. Pastor Kevin has some nice words for Jeff (who wouldn't? I'm still in awe of his piece) but, honestly, it seems rather condescending to me. And, perhaps, jealous that Jeff has reached so many people with a fresh message that challenges people to actually think instead of simply obey.

It's obeying men, b to the w, not God.

Regarding Jeff's other video, I don't agree with all of what Bell says. Essentially, it comes down to this question...what's the difference between Paul and Hitler? Paul tortured and killed Christians but then became one himself and all was forgiven, right? Hitler never believed in Christ so no salvation from him. Does that mean that he is burning in hell with a red man lording over him with a pitchfork? No, that's a child's fantasy. It does mean that Hitler is simply nothing now but dust in the earth...which, in Greek, is Hades:) Again, it comes back to Romans 10: 9-10. It's the sin after that which I am talking about and what works, greater than these, we have been tasked to do.

A. Noni Mouse said...

How about the parts where Pastor Kevin went wrong?

How does someone identify "where Kevin when wrong"?

Mark Ward said...

Well, they seem to know where Jeff went wrong, hmm? But this is my whole point...

A. Noni Mouse said...

Well, they seem to know where Jeff went wrong, hmm?

By comparing his video to what the Bible says. But what is your standard for identifying what is right and what isn't?

Mark Ward said...

So, Pastor Kevin et al aren't wrong but Jeff is because he doesn't see things Kevin's way? Kevin..also a man...also flawed...why does he get to be right? Simply because he sees things the way that institution says it is? There's the insertion and that's my problem. It seems that Pastor Kevin and you don't want people thinking for themselves. Funny, this would be a way that I am actually more libertarian and you are (ahem) more socialist:)

I think that Jeff's interpretation of the Bible is largely accurate. My standard is the Bible and the verses that I've quoted above support my points. I'm not ignoring your points (although we can pretty much throw out most of the Old Testament except, as Christ commands, the Commandments) or pretending they don't exist. I'm saying the verses I've quoted transform them into something else. The Bible is very, very clear about this. But it's really no big deal to me that you don't think so. Your relationship with God is YOURS not mine. As long as the basics are there (accepting Christ, the Commandments +1, works greater than these, serving the less fortunate), so what?

I don't know you so I have no idea why you are so focused on the sin aspects of the Bible. But when I usually encounter folks like this, they desperately need the threat of hellfire to prevent themselves from sinning. They also are inordinately pre-occupied with how I believe and want me to conform as they worry for my soul (again with the "socialism") Is this you? I don't need that threat because sinning is all about breaking your fellowship with God, not the ticket in or out of salvation. That ticket is belief in Jesus (Romans 10: 9-10) who sacrificed himself for us. If you are one of these folks, the problem you are having is that your are placing your perceptions and feelings of yourself on to me. While we are both human, what drives me is different than what drives you. Essentially, it seems, that you are operating under the assumption that I am as "weak" as you are when it comes to certain aspects of fellowship breaking. I assure you, I'm not.

Besides, I think that God clearly wants us to focus less on our sins (as He clearly states in Hebrews 8) and more on works...serving the least among us...doing work greater than Jesus did. It is in this area that I readily admit that I fall short of God's expectations. Of course, this does not mean that I'm "going to hell" for this because I still accept Christ. It simply means that I need to strive to be better...do works greater than these...every day of my life.