I've had a few debates here and more than several over at TSM regarding government power. My friends on the right are convinced that government has more power than ever before. I contend that the real power lies within the private sector and the people that run our government are simply stoolies for the corporations of this country. I have pointed to K street and the massive growth of lobbyists as evidence but conservatives will not budge. The "Gubmint" is threatening me with a gun, they cry. Corporations are not.
Yet, an article in today's New York Times seems to suggest otherwise. Genentech, a bioengineering company, sent several talking points, through emails from lobbyists, to members of both parties. These talking points, in some cases the same language, were used in speeches on the floor of Congress during the debate over the health care bill. Essentially, we have a private company shaping policy and directing communication over a public issue: health care. I suspect that this will not be the only example to come to light.
Wow, folks. I'm quaking with fear at the awesome power of our "gubmint" who can now plainly be seen as nothing but over glorified middle men pretending to serve the public. Let's just dispense with the pretense (and the waste of tax payer money) and have the corporations of this country appoint a CEO of America INC.
Barf.
18 comments:
K Street - corporations LOBBYING the govt for favors (which govt has the power to grant).
If corporations were the real power base, they wouldn't need to lobby.
Maybe if you hadn't always been feeding at the public trough you might have at least a little better appreciation for business.
Tell me again M, if I refuse to shop at WalMart, what happens - what does WalMart do to me? If I refuse to buy govt approved or provided health insurance, what will happen? Who's power should I be most concerned with? I know I can change employers if I'm not happy with the one I've got, how does that work if I'm unhappy with my govt?
Given how poorly your readership has defended the health insurance initiative of the govt, I don't think you'll get much backup on this one.
Why do so many conservatives support the death penalty? If there's anything that you don't want the government to do, it's have license to kill its own citizens. Why are so many conservatives itching to remove layers of appeals? And increase the power of the police to confiscate property from suspected drug dealers without any court proceedings?
Why do so many conservatives want constitutional amendments to eliminate abortion and gay marriage? Why did they fight tooth and nail to keep sodomy laws on the books? Why do they oppose birth control?
The answer is, not all conservatives do. There are several stripes of conservatives: libertarians, laissez-faire capitalists, religious moralists, etc. Their goals only roughly coincide. Mostly they band together to defeat their "enemies."
Conservatives are just as eager to use government power to achieve their goals as anyone else. Some of them want to reduce government power in order to increase the power of corporations. In this day and age, it is foolish to think that corporations have no power. They are multinational entities, owned and operated by boards that have no allegiance to any country or flag.
Take, for example, Halliburton. This quintessential American company fled to Dubai. Think of all the major drug companies. Think of all the Chinese-controlled corporations. Think of Blackwater: they've got guns, and they're not too careful how they use them.
Is it really wise for the US government to engage in unilateral disarmament against corporate behemoths? Companies like Walmart and Exxon have bigger budgets than countries like Israel, South Korea, Sweden and Finland. How can you possibly trust corporations after you've seen what Halliburton and Blackwater did in Iraq and Nigeria, and what Wall Street did last year. What about all those food companies that imported tainted food from China without testing it, or knowingly ran a peanut production line that was infected with salmonella. Or airlines that skimp on aircraft maintenance?
Corporations don't answer to the citizens. If a power company exec can dump thousands of tons of coal slurry into a leaky sludge pond to get his annual bonus, while killing millions of fish and poisoning the ground water for thousands of people, he'll do it. Responsibility is so diluted in corporations that execs feel almost no fear about poisoning lakes and rivers just to make a few extra bucks. They're almost never caught, and they almost never pay for their crimes.
With government we have some modicum of control over their behavior. With multinational corporations we are completely helpless, except through regulation by our government. And you want to reduce the power of the US government in the face of monolithic multinationals? That is, as Dick Cheney would say, dangerously naive.
Why do so many conservatives support the death penalty?
This relates to corporate power vis-a-vis govt power, HOW?
I don't support the death penalty, as much as I might believe that some people really, REALLY deserve to die. I don't because I don't trust the govt with that power. But I'm a libertarian rather than a conservative (as much as those in the liberal-to-left can't seem to understand the distinction and despite your nod in that direction). If the left would've ever made half the common cause with libertarians that the social cons did, we might have a very different political world. The left didn't because it is a bigger group of puritans than fundie Christian social cons. You should've noted the Nation articles I've linked to excoriating the moderate wing of the Dem party. [Sounded a lot like the right-wing talking about RINOs.]
Some of them want to reduce government power in order to increase the power of corporations.
Same question to you blk - what happens when I refuse to patronize WalMart - what do they do to me? How do they control me? If you can't answer that, then your statement above is nothing but bullshit leftist rhetoric.
Halliburton and Blackwater did all the bad things they did FOR THE GOVT, and paid for BY THE GOVT. They didn't do it for jollies, or profit in the free market. There IS no market for that - except from the govt.
While there are other ways to keep businesses (not just corporations) from polluting, I'll concede that as a fair case for regulation - with the stipulation that the exercise of power to that end is always potentially corruptible. Critics on the left never seem to grasp that, as witness M's loss for words to reply to GOF in a previous thread.
A couple of additional thoughts.
First, "The "Gubmint" is threatening me with a gun, they cry. Corporations are not."
What part of that is factually incorrect? That govt doesn't have a unquestioned monopoly on the use of force? That force is NOT what the govt uses to gain compliance? That corporations can use force as the govt does? Do tell.
If I don't do as a corporation wants, what happens? When I don't do as the govt wants, what happens?
Second, "Quaking With Fear". Are you recycling the "bitterly clinging" meme that Obama dashed away from with all the speed he could muster? That would seem a bit odd coming from a self-professed Christian who supposedly respects the right to keep and bear arms. I guess both of those are less comforting to you than the thought that the govt has your best interests at heart.
Or perhaps that's just another attempt to reach out by showing how stupid and contemptible the "other side" really is, in the hope that they will repent and come to Jesus, I mean liberalism.
Lastly, the govt has legitimate functions to serve - even us wild-eyed [small-l] libertarians grasp that. You have to really get out to the fringes to find those who oppose ALL govt. The majority of conservatives used to be skeptical of govt power - until they learned from liberals/progressives all the ways that govt power can be used. You have taught them well.
Juris, my quaking with fear comment comes from an irrational fear of the government when it's the corporations we should be more worried about...
Although, President Obama was correct in his comments regarding clinging. As usual, the right didn't (and doesn't) get it.
No more comment from me M until you answer my questions above. As far as I can see, you have the irrational fear about corporate power - coupled with a dangerous naiveté about govt power.
Although, President Obama was correct in his comments regarding clinging.
Yeah, that must be why he put as much distance between himself and that comment as was humanly possible. So fast & far that you can't even keep up! I'm no Christian and I still resent all the implications in that about why I own guns - he can fuck himself, and so can you if that's what you think is reality.
"If corporations were the real power base, they wouldn't need to lobby."
That pretty much says it all right there.
Okay, let's see.... if you postulate that
a. Corporations are the real power base in this country,
and that therefore
b. Corporations are controlling and limiting government rather than the other way around,
then that must mean that
c. The "healthcare reform", "financial reform" and "energy reform" currently passing through Congress are in fact a game the multinationals are playing to increase their own power, using Congress as a smokescreen.
Right?
And in next week's X-Files...
Corporations of this country use force every day...here and around the world now as well (see: Blackwater)
The politician can't win unless he succumbs to a variety of lobbyists who give him money to win. Sure, the assassin does the actual wetwork, if you will, but does that mean the person that pays him is innocent? It's called conspiracy to commit murder. Or, in this case, threaten violence or imprisonment. The government is a tool, juris, that is used by the real masters of this country...the corporations.
GOF, under the current language of the bill, you are, in fact, correct. Everyone in private industry is going to benefit greatly from these bills. Drug companies will make more money (more people buying drugs), insurance companies will have more customers, and health organizations (including doctors) will see more patients because everyone will be insured.
Corporations of this country use force every day...
Bull fucking shit! Blackwater's actions were at the behest of THE GOVT - are you that fucking stupid? Blackwater would have never even EXISTED if THE GOVT didn't ask for such 'services'. Show me a "Blackwater" that sells its services to anybody but THE GOVT. You can't you moron.
The government is a tool, juris, that is used by the real masters of this country...the corporations.
Okay, enough. You are just too fucking stupid to continue this discussion. As is amply demonstrated by your absolute inability to explain in any way why your statement makes sense and my questions didn't. Hint: using circular arguments just makes you dizzy. You are consigned to my list of religious zealots with whom it is impossible to discuss something; you are too much like a Phelpsian except instead of gays, for you it is corporations.
Not to mention that if your statement were at all true, there's not a goddam thing you could ever do about it, let alone use the govt "tool" to control the corporations. How can you say such stupid shit?
Blackwater has recently more or less admitted that they bribed people in Iraq to cover up or change the story about. How did the all powerful "gubmint" allow this to happen?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/world/middleeast/11blackwater.html
As to the rest of your comment, I would suggest watching this film.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Fight_%282005_film%29
Kevin did and wrote a review of it which you can find here.
http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2007/12/why-we-fight.html
Actually, before you watch the film, I want you to think about Eisenhower's farewell speech and then your lines...
"You are just too fucking stupid to continue this discussion."
"You are consigned to my list of religious zealots with whom it is impossible to discuss something"
...and then try saying them again.
Listen dumbass, for all of your fear of corporate power, you have cited exactly ONE rogue operation, that for all its misdeeds (none of which I dispute or excuse) occurred OUTSIDE of this country (and their 'services' were asked for, paid for and covered up by THE GOVT). THAT is what you are frightened by? Boo!
You equate that with WalMart, Microsoft, Ford or Pfizer? Let alone countless smaller corporations (and presumably non-corporate businesses)?
Pfizer by the way is a great recent example of corporations using GOVT POWER for special treatment - see Kelo. Now, I might ask you, if the corporation was the power to be feared, why did it take THE GOVT to get the land for them? Could it be that the corporation couldn't use force, and the govt could? Oh fuck no, that CAN'T be right.
But talking to you is like trying to understand why the Westboro Baptist Church is homophobic. It defies all reason.
Markadelphia. Government has created the lobbying process. Government holds all the cards. Because government has interfered SO MUCH in daily affairs, the market and whatever else you can think of, government has created this climate in which IT is trying to replace free markets, insomuch as businesses are pretty much forced to go to the king's court and kiss the ring in order to gain favored status (or market share). Private individuals ALSO use lobbyists - in their case, they have to go to the king's court and kiss the ring to try and MITIGATE government's impact and interference in their lives. That's pretty much the SOLE reason for the existence of the NRA. If we had a government that respected the limits of the Constitution, that respected individual liberties, there would simply be NO REASON for the existence of such lobbying groups. If the government stayed the fuck out of the marketplace, and DID NOT grant favored status to one business over another, CORPORATE lobbying groups would have no reason to exist.
You have to be a complete fucking moron if you don't see this.
Lobbyists are not inherently evil - they are a typical response to an unresponsive, overreaching government. Just about EVERYONE has a lobbyist in DC. I can GUARANTEE you that whatever group or organization YOU like is paying good money to get the ear of a congressman or senator too.
The type of people who strive and spend to get into government do so because they crave that power, that control - regardless of party affiliation. They WANT to call the shots. They WANT to tell CEOs to drive into DC rather than take a plane. They WANT to control who earns how much. They WANT to tell Joe Sixpack how to live.
And you, idiot that you are, WANT to give them more power - because the "right" people are in charge.
"you have cited exactly ONE rogue operation"
Alright, how about our entire banking system? Please explain to me juris how the government runs them and it's not the other way around. They blow a shit load of money, whine about needing more, we bail them out, and then they do whatever the fuck they want with the money. I just read today that we overpaid them in many cases.
"why did it take THE GOVT to get the land for them?"
"Could it be that the corporation couldn't use force, and the govt could?"
Because the government is the tool, juris. It's like saying that it's all the hammer's fault the nail got smashed in.
I'm curious as to why this upsets you so much but I do have some ideas.
"And you, idiot that you are, WANT to give them more power - because the "right" people are in charge."
Kevin, your entire comment fails to note one specific point. WE are the government. If you don't like the way it is set up, get involved and do something about it. Who is your representative? Your senator? Have you ever written them? With government, you CAN get involved and do something about it. That's one of the bedrock principles of our country. What say to I have in what Wal Mart says or does? Zero.
What I want is for the corporations of this country to have less power. That doesn't necessarily mean I want the government to have more. It might be nice if they people have more...which used to mean the government...but now that we live in a plutonomy I don't blame Kevin if he would feel frustrated at my suggestion above.
We are SUPPOSED to be the government. However, any given government represents at most half the country at any given time, coupled with the fact that administrations come and go, while the entrenched bureaucracy (which grows with EVERY government, as new laws and regulations are passed) is FOREVER. That is why govt is unresponsive. That is why lobbyists make a career of pleading to the current crew in charge.
I have not written to my representative (Bono), or my senators (Feinstein and Boxer - with whom i disagree vehemently on just abot any issue you'd care to mention and I highly doubt that they'd do anything with a letter from me than toss it), but I have written to my governor, to no avail. Did I mention unresponsive?
Alright, how about our entire banking system?
I never supported bailing out the banks. So don't throw that shit at me, nor can you use that as an example of corporations USING FORCE like the govt does. Are you ADHD - you just can't follow a line of logic to save your life.
I'm curious as to why this upsets you so much but I do have some ideas.
You contradict yourself. You much prefer your uninformed speculation to whatever I might say.
I am upset because I'm trying to teach a pig to sing, and I'm being too stubborn to just walk away.
Speaking of contradicting yourself... you complain that the govt used force to provide the land for Pfizer - precisely what I am saying happens! The govt uses FORCE and corporations can not - thus they use the govt to do what they can not. Can you really not understand that? You refuse to blame the govt as though it was a virgin that was raped - rather than a harlot providing a service.
WE are the government.
Did you NOT say earlier in THIS VERY THREAD that corporations run the govt? Then WE are NOT the govt. Which we decidedly are not - otherwise there would be no need for electing legislators and governors, congress-critters and Presidents. The people are the Sovereign, from which the govt derives its legitimate power. Honest to god - you really teach?
What I want is for the corporations of this country to have less power.
Alright, one more time. What specific power has a corporation used to abuse you? What have you been FORCED to do by a corporation that you should have been free from doing? [I just know where this is going to go - but I, being a good capitalist, will sell him the rope to hang himself.]
"What specific power has a corporation used to abuse you?"
Juris, you have inspired a new post. It will be up later.
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