Combined with the fact that we began to lose parts of the culture war, when it came to other Americans beginning to recognize gay rights, expanding women's rights, abortion rights and such, the Religious Right and the Republican Party infected gun-toting America with a chip on its shoulder about a mile wide. This led to the myth that "they" (fill in the blank, gays, Jews, blacks, liberals --- whatever) are "taking away our country from 'us'"...
This would be the fear of the "other" that I have been talking about lately.
Conservative" means that you believe it's right to legalize torture, but reject health care for all.
Wow. I've never heard it put so succinctly before but yes, that is what it means to be conservative.
These days to be a conservative means that you hate the United States government elected by the people and believe that if millions of citizens are out of work that it's their own fault and that the rest of the community should not help them by spending tax dollars.
Yep.
To be a conservative means you believe that healthcare reform will lead to "death panels"; that the president of the United States is not a "real American"; that a university education is a dangerous thing; that Americans who live in big cities are less American than those who live in small towns; that brown people, blacks, progressive whites, gays, public school teachers, Hispanics, immigrants, are somehow conspiring to subvert the "real America" with a "gay agenda" or a "Muslim agenda" or at least the browning of "our" white America.
Oh no he di-int! The right is not racist!!! THE RIGHT IS NOT RACIST!!! THE RIGHT IS NOT RACIST!!! THE RIGHT IS NOT RACIST!!! THE RIGHT IS NOT RACIST!!! THE RIGHT IS NOT RACIST!!! THE RIGHT IS NOT RACIST!!!
(keep chanting this and maybe someday it will be true)
And now, the coup de grace.
In other words to be a conservative today is to be an anti-American, nihilistic libertarian know-nothing who believes in unregulated consumerism and the theology of dominion. It is in fact what conservatives of the 60s said the hippies were: selfish brats with no sense of responsibility to anyone. It's also a party of armed revolution not so subtly egging on its lunatic fringe to commit violence. It applauds white rubes who show up at public meetings carrying loaded assault weapons "to make a point" and signs reminiscent of Timothy McVeigh and his famous T-shirt; "the tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants" and the like are held up by Murdoch/Beck/Fox and company --- those profiteers off the unregulated market --- as paragons of good sense and free enterprise and gun rights.
My question for conservatives who post here...how is he wrong? Virtually everything I have seen over the years on this blog and in discussions with the right adheres to the paragraph above. And it's getting worse every day.
Of course, it's not enough just to rip the psychotics who run the GOP now. What should they actually be?
An actual conservative believes in community and accountability to a moral tradition that puts the greater good of others ahead of oneself. Take a look at the way the very conservative communities of New England's Puritan towns were arranged around the village green known as "the commons."
Shared public spaces were owned by the community, for instance grazing land, and town meetinghouses. People were obliged to show up and participate in the fledgling democracy and vote. Taxes were dispensed by committees for charitable purposes. A duty to government and obligations placed on citizens by other citizens --- when it came to putting the life of the community ahead of the self --- were the norm. The free-market and individual enterprise were strictly curtailed based on not just the needs of the community but, when it came to things like banking and lending, the Old Testament teachings that frowned on "usury" --- in other words banks making more money than they should from ordinary people-- were upheld.
And the line that is sure to explode heads...
President Obama is a conservative. He believes in the brotherhood of all people. He believes in the freedom of the individual to make moral decisions. He believes that sexuality, religion and skin color should not define us but the content of our characters should define us. He believes that we are our brother's keeper. He believes in loyalty to community and country --- in other words patriotism, whether that's the honor of serving in the military or the honor of paying taxes to support not just national defense but how we treat what the Bible calls the least amongst us.
I agree completely. And I think many on the right know this which is why they have become hyper ragers right now. How dare President Obama try to out conservative the conservatives! Let's paint a Hitler moustache on him and scare some people. Yeah, that'll work!
Mr. Schaeffer's right, dudes. What the fuck happened to your party?
22 comments:
Frustrating election night huh Markadelphia?
Yes... me again. And let me be the first to respond.
First, it would have been nice to have had a link to the source of your excerpts so as to actually get a point of reference from which the comments were made. It isn't that I don't trust your integrity... well... yes... it is just that!
Second, It has been some time since most "conservatives" have felt that they were truly being represented by the GOP. Both parties have been shifting to the left for many years now. To the point a Rep. today would resemble very much a Dem. of 40-50 years ago. For that reason it is not suprising that an individual like Frank Schaeffer abandon the GOP as many conservatives have done so.
"Conservative" means that you believe it's right to legalize torture, but reject health care for all.
Wow. I've never heard it put so succinctly before but yes, that is what it means to be conservative."
How the hell would you know? You are neither a conservative nor have any interest in understanding what a conservative truly believes. Personally, I believe I would rather see one man tortued to get information that would save thousands of others... but only in the most extreme of cases. As for Health Care for all, I am all for it. In fact, I think we already have it. I just don't want to pay for anyone elses health care other than mine and my families.
"These days to be a conservative means that you hate the United States government elected by the people and believe that if millions of citizens are out of work that it's their own fault and that the rest of the community should not help them by spending tax dollars."
It is not about hating the publicly elected government as it is the idiots running for office and those that ellect them from a completely uninformed position. The faults of the government are in deed the faults of the people that elect them. Perhaps if we had a way to make sure people knew what they were actually voting for before actually voting things might take a small step in the right dirrect.
...more to follow I'm sure.
Speaking of what happened to your party...
Any comment?
Or are you just too busy wanking to the latest rant about the party OUT of power?
Seriously, I remember when there were responsible adults in the Republican party. Intelligent, moderate, thoughtful with whom might disagree on some issues, but with whom one could disagree civilly. Minnesota used to have lots of them. Former Governors Arne Carlson, Harold LeVander and Elmer L. Anderson, former Senator Dave Durenberger, and former Congressman Bill Frenzel just to mention the ones I thought of first.
The Repigs chased out Carlson (who became an independent and endorsed Kerry and Obama) as well as former state auditor Judy Dutcher (now a Democrat) for the unspeakable crimes of being pro-choice, pro-gay rights and for reasonable and fair tax policies.
Tell me, does a shrieking, radioactively insane harpy like Michele Bachmann represent you (or anyone else who does not hear voices in their heads)? Why that woman is not locked up and under heavy sedation is one of the mysteries of our time...
In your perfect world, such dissent would be locked up. That world is called China. Or Cuba. Or North Korea.
You lot ever think about how small is the difference between "useful idiot" and "useless eater?"
You really should, because frankly none of you are very bright and the People's Vanguard ain't gonna need many pomo deconstruction experts or wywmn's studies majors. Best learn how to swing a pick while you can.
Mentally ill people, and Bachmann, if she actually believes what she says and I have no evidence to the contrary, is beyond any doubt seriously mentally ill, should be hospitalized and treated, not jailed.
Delusional schizophrenia - manifested by a complete disconnect from objective reality and by hearing voices (Bachmann has bragged about the latter) are symptoms of a very grave mental disorder.
This is apparently a difference you are unable to grasp.
"Both parties have been shifting to the left for many years now. To the point a Rep. today would resemble very much a Dem. of 40-50 years ago."
This is a statement so breathtakingly truthless that it belongs on the Mount Rushmore of historically ignorant assertions. Do you have even a passing familiarity with Dwight Eisenhower? With Richard Nixon or Gerald Ford? None of them would be even remotely tolerated by the rabid know-nothing teabaggers and libertarian crackpots that have taken over the Repig party?
I beg you, read some history or have it read to you. YOu may be entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
keep talking about anybody but obama
Yes, the Republican party has been going steadily rightward since the 80's. All the moderates have been slowly ejected from the party or intimidated into silence.
It's just crazy how Republicans say how ruthless and dictatorial and intolerant of dissent Democrats are, while they excoriate someone like Scozzofava and cast her into the outer darkness.
Similarly, people like Rush Limbaugh constantly harp about what victims of Political Correctness they are, while bludgeoning to political death any Republican who dares stray from the Beck/Limbaugh/Coulter path of righteousness. It's okay when Republicans have affairs, cheat on taxes, get divorced, take drugs, and are intolerant of dissent within their own ranks because they're right, and everyone else is wrong. Huh?
It's truly amazing how so many Republicans consider themselves to be Christians, while completely denigrating everything that Christ actually stood for. Christ would not condone the torture of one man to save a thousand. It's a false choice in almost every instance, something that only happens in the movies. It violates every tenet of American law and Christian belief.
Christ would want us to care for the sick and the poor. Christ would not want us to kill and torture. Christ would not want us to wage wars of revenge. In the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus says:
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."
—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV
How can so-called Conservative Christians reconcile their lust for preemptive war, the death penalty and torture with Christ's pacifism? Dick Cheney would spit on Christ, calling him foolish and naive.
The conservatives have made greed and selfishness a virtue. They have spite and hatred for anyone that stumbles who isn't one of them. Helping the weak is wrong because it only serves to make the weak dependent on the strong, and drags the strong down.
I just don't get it. We're all Americans. Why aren't we all helping each other? I get that we can't support the whole world. So fine -- let's not give illegals a nickle. But that doesn't seem to satisfy the Palins and Limbaughs. They don't want to help anyone. They just want to keep what's theirs and screw everyone else.
If we don't pull together as a country we're going to fail.
So how do reach out to people who currently populate the GOP base? It's funny but I have been accused several times of late of being the intolerant one...the angry one....the spiteful one when all I am doing is simply pointing out how intolerant and insane they are.
And yet people like last in line tell me to not be so judgmental and be nice. I admit that has worked with my friend Eric at the gym but not with my friend Scott there who still wishes someone would kill President Obama. Honestly, it hasn't worked with anyone else I know who proudly claims to support people like Bachmann. I just don't see the point in trying to be nice to a group of people who are just going to spit on you and tell that you are weak for being partisan.
You make some good points. I agree with KennedyDem, they should just be rounded up.
Hey - worked for me. Keep on keeping on guys, you're doing just fine.
-Joe Stalin
Seems like dissent is now not only unpatriotic, but grounds for insanity.
If you're seriously asking about how to reach conservatives, Marky, you might want to start out by not insulting them. Calling them mental patients, flat-earthers, psychotics "fucks". Or retards will not endear them to you and will severely detract from any message you wish to empart.
Once you are prepared to discourse with them in a civil manner, try using facts, reason and logic without freighting your message with emotion. If your facts, reason and logic ring true, that will be enough to turn them to your cause.
That's how grown-ups discuss things.
Disagree with me based on facts and I have no problem with you. See the numerous ex-Republicans I listed in a previous posting. Disagree with me on the basis of your totalitarian ideology and what Rambo Jeebus "tells" you and I will quite justifiably brand you a kook outside the realm of rational discourse.
I am perfectly content to hang Bachmann with her own words. I couldn't possibly make up anything crazier than the things she has said on national television. Evidence of her insanity is that she has denied saying them AFTER being shown the video of her SAYING it.
It was she, not I, who claimed that Gawd "told" her to run for public office. That is a matter of record. Calling school health clinics "sex clinics", as Bachmann did on the floor of the House, is patently false and hyperbolic idiocy. This is not argument based on facts and reason, it is more like pointing at a cat while jumping up and down and screaming "THAT'S A DOG!, THAT'S A DOG!! THAT'S A DOG!!!"
Dissent is one thing. The unhinged ravings made up by by people who are allergic to facts is another thing entirely. And that applies to the kookier conspiracy theorists on the left too.
Good post Kevin. How do you reach out to the GOP base? Maybe you could start by not constantly telling them how stupid and racist they are. Have you considered skipping the step where you feel the need to constantly point out the intolerance or insanity of others? Isn’t is possible to calmy ask a person questions that may make them think about their positions? You aren’t interested in reaching out to anybody based on your writings on your blog. You may say you want the country to come together but your actions say something different. Is pointing out intolerance, calling people racist, calling people uninformed, calling people stupid, calling people uneducated, calling people hicks, calling people brainwashed douchebags and calling them insane really the first step in your process of reaching out to folks you don’t agree with? Whether your accusations are true or not does not matter – what do you expect someones reaction to be when you fling those terms around all the time? You know that political discussions with people having different viewpoints can quickly become confrontational and unpleasant, as not everyone enjoys the passionate presentation of ideas they profoundly disagree with. Lots of (thin skinned) people also don’t like devastating criticism of politicians they voted for. Have you considered that it’s easy for folks to interpret condemnation of their voting choices as a blanket insult to their judgment? It isn’t what you say...it’s what people hear. Us political junkies learn to expect a certain number of bruises in the rough-and-tumble of debating current events.
Phrases in this thread alone - “while bludgeoning to political death”, “It's truly amazing how so many Republicans consider themselves to be Christians”, “so-called Conservative Christians”, “Dick Cheney would spit on Christ”, “The conservatives have made greed and selfishness a virtue”, “They have spite and hatred for anyone that stumbles who isn't one of them”, “They don't want to help anyone. They just want to keep what's theirs and screw everyone else”, “I remember when there were responsible adults in the Republican party”, “a shrieking, radioactively insane harpy”, “Bachmann, if she actually believes what she says and I have no evidence to the contrary, is beyond any doubt seriously mentally ill, should be hospitalized and treated, not jailed”, and “the rabid know-nothing teabaggers and libertarian crackpots that have taken over the Repig party”.
Keep in mind that I wasn't offended but that was pretty personal, no? Does a conversation about policy really have to get that personal? Lots of generalizations, and a little mean too. Is a Christian really supposed to build a bridge to THAT? Talk about ideas, not other people. It’s easy to talk about other people – 7th grade girls talk about other people all day. I’m not saying I’m not mean and never generalize but I’m not the one on the internet wondering why I’m not able to reach out to folks on the other side. There is very little any of you can do to change someone else in terms of political debate. I don't even go to church, my agenda is more economic.
Myself, I think lots of folks who have politics as their religion are setting themselves up for disappointment because they are pouring lots of energy, emotion and time into a corrupt system, and into people who navigate through that corrupt system. You all said the old way of doing things was over. Clearly that isn’t the case. You all got everything you wanted election-wise last year and you are all still frustrated and pissed off. Invest that time, energy and emotion into your families, not some politician, not some meaningless social scene and not some pro sports team (to give a couple random examples).
Last, so what am I supposed to do when they call President Obama, Barack the Magic Negro? When they carry a sign of him to a rally dressed like a tribal witch doctor? It's racist. What the fuck else should I call it? A sense a lot of deflection here like I'm the problem. I'm not.
I have calmly asked them questions and the response I get, invariably, is hyper rage. In fact, the recent rally at the Capital reminded me quite a bit of the rallies we saw a few years back when Muslims were protesting those cartoons ran in a Dutch newspaper. I'm not being facetious...what is the difference between the rally at Congress (organized by Michelle Bachmann) and anti American rallies by hirabis?
In fact, what is the difference between Michelle Bachmann and a Muslim radical-focusing specifically on their language and vitriol at the government?
libertarian crackpots that have taken over the Repig party?
Well, THERE is the absolute Everest of political stupidity. I love it - blame the LIBERTARIANS for the knuckle-dragging, economic-populist, big-govt social cons that is the current Rep party. That altitude of stupidity and I can understand why your brain doesn't work - there isn't enough oxygen.
Have you all noticed that the Obama administration has repudiated SO FEW Bush era policies? Seriously, are you all just that fucking stupid that since TEAM BLUE is in charge you don't give a shit what they actually do? You people deserve the govt you are going to get - good and hard. The damnable thing is I don't have a good exit strategy to watch from a safe distance.
And for all the whining about the EVIL RIGHT WING, you can't even gin up enough support in the moderate wing of YOUR OWN PARTY to accomplish much. What a bunch of maroons.
Marky Boy... in previous comments you have agreed that the core that binds us all as Americans is 'freedom'. If in fact you believe this, when you hear and see things such as...
"Barack the Magic Negro? When they carry a sign of him to a rally dressed like a tribal witch doctor?"
...you need to recognize their freedom to say and display such things. It does not necessarily mean they are racist, thus calling them such does not help. Even for those doing such things because they are racist, it is their freedom to do so. The point that most here are trying to get across to you is that you get more flies with honey than vinegar. Calling these people out or antagonizing them further only promotes further reactions from both sides. Rather, if you feel you need to comment, do so in civil debate and explain justly why such things bother and offend you. Or better yet, simply ignore them.
As a teach you should recognize that the problem children of your classroom are, more often than not, acting out to try to gain attention. If you take away their power to get attention, they quickly move on to some other means. Or better yet, if you can give them positive attention rather than negative and help them to focus that energy to useful purposes you will see far greater results than simply scolding them and thus promoting further negative outbursts from them.
What are you supposed to do? Re-read Kevins post above, that's what. Why do you have to call it anything? Accusations of racism are thrown around so easily by you folks on a weekly basis that it has lost its shock value. For what little it is worth, accusations of racism on here him hollow to me.
Your most recent attempt said..."It's clear to me that Joe Wilson is fucking racist. He can't stand the fact that a black man is president. In fact, I'd wager most people..."
When you start sentences with "It's clear to me..." and "I'd wager most people..." you are not dealing in fact. Even blk told you "Mark, I have to admit your vitriolic comments aren't very convincing and don't put you in a very good light. I suggest you rewrite your posts until you remove all epithets and lower your blood pressure."
It's also hilarious to see you having some sort of problem with how some protest looks. How about this for a start - when a tea party happens, property usually doesn't get damaged, buildings don't get burned, people usually don't barricade themselves in traffic, etc.
You're getting some good nuggets of info on here like "you get more flies with honey than vinegar", "simply ignore them", & "take away their power to get attention". Don't ever forget - "Once you are prepared to discourse with them in a civil manner, try using facts, reason and logic without freighting your message with emotion. If your facts, reason and logic ring true, that will be enough to turn them to your cause."
"Christ would not condone the torture of one man to save a thousand"
Really? I was under the impression that he condoned the torture and murder of one, in order to save everyone.
No relevance to this discussion, but...
"The conservatives have made greed and selfishness a virtue."
Please tell me where, in the Gospels, Jesus said that charity consists of taking money out of another persons pocket and giving it to someone one thinks more deserving. That's what politicians do (at the point of a gun no less) when they take tax money and use it for welfare, health care, old age pensions etc.
In point of fact, charity happens when I give my own money to someone I find deserving. When it is done by government, it is just plain theft. To make matters even worse, this program of theft is supported by people who hoped to be taxed less, while still feeling good about themselves for their compassion.
So, please, in the future, stop calling me selfish. I am not the one who recommends theivery.
PolyKahr
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