I'm not really big on the targeted assassinations of anyone, much less American citizens. If the guy was in war zone like Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq it would be one thing. But he's in Yemen, a country with which we're not at war.
If we can kill him in Yemen, why not Cairo? Or London? Or Toronto? Or Forth Worth?
It's one thing to get a warrant for someone's arrest, and allow the arresting officers to return deadly fire with deadly fire and let the bodies fall where they may. But to authorize an American citizen's assassination on the say-so of the NSC or CIA, without a court trial or even a warrant from a judge seems wrong. You just know this guy is drone-bait.
Basically, it allows you to accuse someone of being a terrorist and then incarcerate or murder them without charge or recourse to the courts. This kind of thing is wrong when Israel does it, wrong when Bush did it and it's wrong now. Because if you can justify this for American Al Qaeda terrorists, you can justify it for any American who makes terroristic threats against the president, congressmen, abortion providers, coal company executives, and anyone else that hotheads target with their ire. And that's a lot of people these days.
This is the direct result of the terrible precedents that Bush set and the political strait-jacket the right has put on Obama.
Your willingness to murder someone from afar is no gauge of your toughness or bravery. Your consistency in the exercise of the rule of law and willingness to ensure that all accused are treated fairly is a far better measure.
Juris, this would be an example of the US government taking action against a Muslim citizen to the extreme I discussed in our Koresh debate. I was going to bring this instance up but was waiting to validate the story. I had heard about it awhile ago but not from mainstream sources.
I'm glad to see that you are not full of crap when it comes to your beliefs regarding government power. I know that many at TSM are probably cheering this order by President Obama. I'm certainly not and I also agree with blk.
I'm glad to see that you are not full of crap when it comes to your beliefs regarding government power.
Well, as I recall the discussion, it was I and everyone else who were excoriating the govt for the illegitimate [ab]use of power, and you were the one claiming that the power was legitimate and there were just some mistakes along the way. We saw a systemic problem and you saw just an unusual and unfortunate incident.
So quite frankly I can see how you would support the Obama administration on this - after all, they proved it was okay at Waco, so why not in Yemen?
What I don't understand is why you split on the issue, favorably to the Muslim extremist no less.
I don't support the Obama administration on this. I believe I said so in the above comment. It makes us no different from Al Qaeda.
Now, if Mr. Awlaki was barricaded in a compound with weapons and children (some of whom he possibly has abused) talking of the coming apocalypse then the government does have the right to arrest him. If he resists, then force is warranted.
The question is WHY don't you support Obama on this when you support what the Clinton administration did in Waco, and would apparently not be concerned if it all happened again?
Of the two Americans, the nutter living peaceably in Texas would seem to be the one you would find more supportable than a fruitcake offshore. It would make sense if you didn't give a shit about either, or, if you think it wrong for the govt to PLAN TO DO HARM to either. But the stance you have taken doesn't make one lick of sense. And you don't see it!
Juris, I disagree with your rose colored glasses assessment that he lived "peaceably" in Texas. That is a myth that has been perpetuated by the "Gubmint Bad" crowd.
If Awlaki was in the US, then I would agree that the same approach that was taken with Koresh, hopefully minus the awful mistakes the government did make, should be taken with him. But outright assassinating him? No. And that's not what happened with Koresh. He was not targeted for assassination.
Juris, I disagree with your rose colored glasses assessment that he lived "peaceably" in Texas.
Really? What law had he broken (and for which there is clear evidence and not mere allegation)? Possibly child abuse, right?
Then why didn't Texas law enforcement deal with him?
Why didn't the ATF (which does not have ANY jurisdiction over ANY form of child abuse) arrest him outside the compound as they had nearly infinite opportunity to do?
Talk about the person with the blinders on - it ain't me bubba. What happened was NOT simply the result of "mistakes" - it was a result of the deliberate course of action chosen by the BATF and subsequently the FBI - and perfectly played into by a charismatic (and well armed) lunatic.
That is why you piss me off on the topic - you absolve the govt of effectively all wrongdoing because Koresh was an apocalyptic nutbag. I don't dispute THAT and I sure as FUCK do not have any rose-colored view of the incident. But YOU dispute that the govt was wrong in the ham-fisted tactics from the get-go. You have to be a real boot-licking toady to do that in my opinion.
Remember Cowart and Schlesselman - the morons in Memphis? Amuse yourself and try to find out what has happened with their case. I suspect the Hutaree - mouth-breathers with guns that they are - will end up the same (more hoopla about the arrest and damn little about trial/conviction). The govt loves to hype up charges that they end up not being able to make stick (and once again, Obama follows Bush's lead). Had it not been for Koresh being sufficiently whacked out, that is probably how the Davidian case would've played out. You fall for the govt bait - hook, line and sinker - time and time again; you aren't a smart fish in the least.
8 comments:
I'm not really big on the targeted assassinations of anyone, much less American citizens. If the guy was in war zone like Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq it would be one thing. But he's in Yemen, a country with which we're not at war.
If we can kill him in Yemen, why not Cairo? Or London? Or Toronto? Or Forth Worth?
It's one thing to get a warrant for someone's arrest, and allow the arresting officers to return deadly fire with deadly fire and let the bodies fall where they may. But to authorize an American citizen's assassination on the say-so of the NSC or CIA, without a court trial or even a warrant from a judge seems wrong. You just know this guy is drone-bait.
Basically, it allows you to accuse someone of being a terrorist and then incarcerate or murder them without charge or recourse to the courts. This kind of thing is wrong when Israel does it, wrong when Bush did it and it's wrong now. Because if you can justify this for American Al Qaeda terrorists, you can justify it for any American who makes terroristic threats against the president, congressmen, abortion providers, coal company executives, and anyone else that hotheads target with their ire. And that's a lot of people these days.
This is the direct result of the terrible precedents that Bush set and the political strait-jacket the right has put on Obama.
Your willingness to murder someone from afar is no gauge of your toughness or bravery. Your consistency in the exercise of the rule of law and willingness to ensure that all accused are treated fairly is a far better measure.
Usually I'm only in partial agreement with blk - but this time, I can't think of a word I would dispute.
Juris, this would be an example of the US government taking action against a Muslim citizen to the extreme I discussed in our Koresh debate. I was going to bring this instance up but was waiting to validate the story. I had heard about it awhile ago but not from mainstream sources.
I'm glad to see that you are not full of crap when it comes to your beliefs regarding government power. I know that many at TSM are probably cheering this order by President Obama. I'm certainly not and I also agree with blk.
I'm glad to see that you are not full of crap when it comes to your beliefs regarding government power.
Well, as I recall the discussion, it was I and everyone else who were excoriating the govt for the illegitimate [ab]use of power, and you were the one claiming that the power was legitimate and there were just some mistakes along the way. We saw a systemic problem and you saw just an unusual and unfortunate incident.
So quite frankly I can see how you would support the Obama administration on this - after all, they proved it was okay at Waco, so why not in Yemen?
What I don't understand is why you split on the issue, favorably to the Muslim extremist no less.
I don't support the Obama administration on this. I believe I said so in the above comment. It makes us no different from Al Qaeda.
Now, if Mr. Awlaki was barricaded in a compound with weapons and children (some of whom he possibly has abused) talking of the coming apocalypse then the government does have the right to arrest him. If he resists, then force is warranted.
The question is WHY don't you support Obama on this when you support what the Clinton administration did in Waco, and would apparently not be concerned if it all happened again?
Of the two Americans, the nutter living peaceably in Texas would seem to be the one you would find more supportable than a fruitcake offshore. It would make sense if you didn't give a shit about either, or, if you think it wrong for the govt to PLAN TO DO HARM to either. But the stance you have taken doesn't make one lick of sense. And you don't see it!
Juris, I disagree with your rose colored glasses assessment that he lived "peaceably" in Texas. That is a myth that has been perpetuated by the "Gubmint Bad" crowd.
If Awlaki was in the US, then I would agree that the same approach that was taken with Koresh, hopefully minus the awful mistakes the government did make, should be taken with him. But outright assassinating him? No. And that's not what happened with Koresh. He was not targeted for assassination.
Juris, I disagree with your rose colored glasses assessment that he lived "peaceably" in Texas.
Really? What law had he broken (and for which there is clear evidence and not mere allegation)? Possibly child abuse, right?
Then why didn't Texas law enforcement deal with him?
Why didn't the ATF (which does not have ANY jurisdiction over ANY form of child abuse) arrest him outside the compound as they had nearly infinite opportunity to do?
Talk about the person with the blinders on - it ain't me bubba. What happened was NOT simply the result of "mistakes" - it was a result of the deliberate course of action chosen by the BATF and subsequently the FBI - and perfectly played into by a charismatic (and well armed) lunatic.
That is why you piss me off on the topic - you absolve the govt of effectively all wrongdoing because Koresh was an apocalyptic nutbag. I don't dispute THAT and I sure as FUCK do not have any rose-colored view of the incident. But YOU dispute that the govt was wrong in the ham-fisted tactics from the get-go. You have to be a real boot-licking toady to do that in my opinion.
Remember Cowart and Schlesselman - the morons in Memphis? Amuse yourself and try to find out what has happened with their case. I suspect the Hutaree - mouth-breathers with guns that they are - will end up the same (more hoopla about the arrest and damn little about trial/conviction). The govt loves to hype up charges that they end up not being able to make stick (and once again, Obama follows Bush's lead). Had it not been for Koresh being sufficiently whacked out, that is probably how the Davidian case would've played out. You fall for the govt bait - hook, line and sinker - time and time again; you aren't a smart fish in the least.
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