Contributors

Monday, January 10, 2011

Holiday Dinner Conversation

There's been a lot of discussion about whether the unremitting hate-filled vitriol from the right had anything to do with the shooting of Gabby Giffords in Arizona. It's pretty clear it has. For example...

I was having dinner on Christmas with my family: my wife, my father, mother, three of my sisters, two brothers-in-law, one brother-in-law's mother, and three grandchildren.

We had already had the annual argument on Thanksgiving, so politics was not under discussion. But my father was taking advantage of my brother-in-law's fast Internet connection by watching a Lou Dobbs video. I'm not sure why; Dobbs is making an all-out effort to state that he thinks the illegals are the only rational actors in this mess. Whereas my father thinks illegals should be shot on sight.

Anyway, during dinner my father took the opportunity (again) to crow about the Burma Shave style signs he had put along the highway that took Obama's comment about the United States no longer being a just Christian nation out of context.

Which prompted my nine-year-old nephew to excitedly chime in: "We should put up a sign charging ten dollars to shoot Obama."

For a moment everyone was quiet. Then my sister said, in a very careful and considered tone, "No, sweetie, we don't say things like that. Nobody should shoot anybody."

No one said another thing about it. But everyone knew exactly where this was coming from. My brother-in-law is a birther. He rejects all the evidence that Obama was born in the United States, insists that the birth certificate that has been validated by many observers is false, and so on.

So, is my brother-in-law talking about assassinating the president in front of his third-grade son? I don't know. Maybe the kid came up with this idea all by himself.

But my brother-in-law says that it's "his opinion" that Obama is not an American. Since Obama's mother was an American, nothing else matters -- Obama is an American. End of story. My brother-in-law might as well be saying, "It's my opinion that the sun circles the earth."

What the right calls their "opinions" are quite frequently "delusions." And these delusions are getting increasingly dangerous and violent.

When millions of Americans like my brother-in-law and father prefer to believe the lie that the president has absolutely no right to serve, that there is a vast conspiracy to put an anti-Colonial Kenyan at the top of the US government, it provides the basis for the less balanced to commit murder. This is exactly how the Fort Hood shooter was incited to go on the same sort of shooting rampage. We call him a Muslim terrorist, but he was clearly unhinged and deluded; how is Loughner any different?

Little kids do not always grow up to share their parents' prejudices, opinions and delusions. I share none of my father's hatred of illegal immigrants. My sister married a Mexican-American man, and my father disowned her for it. He's probably spoken to her just once in the last 18 years. But two of my sisters married guys who tell the same racist jokes that my dad does.

So it makes me wonder. What did Randy Loughner, Jared's dad, say in front of his son while he was growing up? Did he talk about "second-amendment remedies" in front of his son? Or is he just as crushed by this as most of us are?

Kids learn what is "normal" by observing their parents and peers. The current political environment is toxic and disgusting to most adults. Think about what it's doing to the kids.

23 comments:

Mark Ward said...

In contrast, my son, during the Bush Administration and clearly influenced by me, said that we teach more people about how he is a bad president and vote him out. Of course, this was 2007 and he didn't yet understand about term limits but I think you get the contrast.

Great post, Nikto. It goes along with what I am going to say in my (now slightly adjusted) Michael Jordan Generation post going up some time tomorrow. We are the products of our culture through the various agencies of socialization with which we act. I think that's where a lot of the disconnect has come in with some of the responses to my posts in the last few days. They think it is politicizing something when it's not. There are cultural consequences for the things people say and do in our interactions.

Mark Ward said...

"What the right calls their "opinions" are quite frequently "delusions." And these delusions are getting increasingly dangerous and violent."

That's going to be a stand alone later in the week. Just fucking brilliant.

TheBigGig said...

Here's some rhetoric for you to cry about:

June 14, 2008, while running for president, Barack Obama said this:

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."

September 17, 2008, Obama said this:

"I want you to argue with them and get in their face."

Or how 'bout these:

"I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!" Obama to ACORN crowd.
"Punch back twice as hard!" Obama to his Obomunists.
"We talk to these folks…so I know whose ass to kick." Obama to the Left on the private sector.
"A Republican victory would mean hand to hand combat." Obama to his Obomunists.
"It’s time to Fight for it." Obama in a speech to his supporters.
"Punish your enemies." Obama to Latino supporters.
"I'm itching for a fight." Obama to Democrats in a speech.

There is no moral level to which the Left will not sink in order to demonize the right.

Where is the conservative equivalent of the "Buck Fush" bumper stickers? Where is the conservative equivalent of the movie depicting the assassination of GW Bush? Where is the conservative equivalent of Rev. Wright?

I could go on for days and days. But I will leave you with a beauty told by Alec Baldwin on Conan O'Brien's show: "If we were living in another country, what we, all of us together, would go down to Washington and stone Henry Hyde to death, stone him to death, stone him to death!" said Baldwin. "Then we would go to their house and we'd kill the family, kill the children."

Nice.

Mark Ward said...

What is truly sad about all of this is, once again, we are right back to that place...the place where no Republicans are racist even though they say racist things all the fucking time...Bush wasn't a fuck up and it's just deranged liberals obsessing...and now, conservatives yell about "using bullets not ballots" but have no responsibility in any of this. Who are you going to believe...me or your lyin' eyes?

None of the examples of I have seen posted on this blog come close to the examples I have posted. You're not going to find them because Democrats and liberals today don't openly and aggressively advocate violence and "second amendment solutions" to problems.

TheBigGig said...

HUH? When did racism enter the discussion? Oh wait - debating a liberal...it all comes down to racism.

My oversight.

But it isn't the Right trying to score political points during the Tucson tragedy. I only see the Left doing that.

Mark Ward said...

It's all part of the same pattern, BigGig...deny, deflect, and it's always the fault of the liberals. Didn't you here? He read Communist Manifesto!

exe said...

Some answers...

"Why Is Jared Loughner Obsessed With Grammar?"

"The Southern Law Poverty Center's Mark Potok, whose job it is to keep track of the various crazies this country breeds and nurtures, links Loughner's bizarre fixation on language and grammar to the theories of a man named David Wynn Miller—or, as he styles himself, :David-Wynn: Miller."

So who is David Wynn Miller? According to Miller himself, he is a "Plenipotentiary-Judge" (and the King of Hawaii); he's also a 62-year-old former tool-and-die maker from Milwaukee. Miller's been selling his particular (and particularly bizarre) strain of the right-wing anti-tax "sovereign citizen" movement/conspiracy for years now, and gotten more than a few people thrown in jail for trying to use his theories.

http://gawker.com/5729241/why-was-jared-loughner-obsessed-with-grammar

GuardDuck said...

Perhaps you can actually make a tangible connection between Loughner and this Miller guy?

No?

They are just both crazy?

Hmmm, then I guess this Miller guy being right wing has ABSOLUTELY. NO. RELEVANCE. WHATSOEVER.

Flat Earther said...

You guys just aren't getting it. Conservatives and libertarians just need to shut the fuck up already, stop arguing with the "right people", swallow every shit sandwich the left feeds them and do it with a polite smile - and in complete silence. They are the right people after all.
Dissent is no longer patriotic - didn't y'all get the memo? Now it's hate-filled, racist speech that inspires assassination attempts.

Lizzie said...

Isn't anyone going to comment about how horrified they are about a 9 year old boy wanting to kill President Obama? Get your priorities straight people!

TheBigGig said...

Markadelphia - "it's always the fault of the liberals"?

Let's be honest here - when the Tucson tragedy struck it was the LEFT who immediately jumped to pin this on the Right (see the NY Times Sunday editorial, Krugman, Olberman). Give me an example of a main stream conservative equivalent of the NY Times attempting to pin this on the Right while the bodies are still in the OR. Vulgar.

Conservatives look at the murderer in Tucson and we see a psychopath; we don't try to use the tragedy to score points. The Left attempts to politicize all it can in order to promote its agenda and demonize the Right. Vulgar.

I do not blame the Left for the tragedy but their response is sickening.

Anonymous said...

What is truly sad about all of this is, once again, we are right back to that place...the place where no Republicans are racist even though they say racist things all the fucking time...

Even though every single instance of someone being "uniquely qualified" because of their race or gender is from the Democrats, and every single instance of claiming that someone is unqualified because of their race or gender is from the Democrats.

Damn Teabaggers said...

Later guys, I've had all I can stand of the "climate of hate" Mark has been deliberately cultivating here.

Last in line said...

There are kids all over America putting forth violent images and talking about killing innocent people. Maybe you haven't heard of certain rap artists, or maybe you defended their right to free speech when that debate happens every so often in this country?

Saw this recently - Is the new standard of discourse we must all use like this - how it will affect a paranoid schitzo who may or may not hear it?

Last in line said...

That post was attn: Lizzie.

TheBigGig said...

Lizzie dahling, one more thing: you are concerned about a 9 year old commenting on killing a president (me too) but are you as concerned (or much, much more concerned) when a bunch of liberals get together and write, finance, star in, distribute and promote a movie about assassinating President Bush?

You wring your hands now, did you then?

Mark Ward said...

Have you ever seen that film, BigGig?

Larry said...

By all means, let's regulate speech according to what might upset crazy people. You know, the kind of people who imagine that dogs are barking orders at them to kill people, or that the Beatles' white album is telling them to start a race war. Yeah, that'll work real well.

Anonymous said...

So according to your line of argument, you bear partial responsibility for this:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blood-libel-sarah-palins-controversial-reference-riled-emotions/story?id=12601352&page=1

That's the first harvest of your 4 day hatefest. Maybe if we're lucky, it's also the last. But if not, if Sarah Palin gets shot, the "climate of hate" you've fostered here should be considered at least partly culpable. Right?

juris imprudent said...

The Southern Law Poverty Center's

Asking the SLPC about right-wing "hate" is like asking a Bircher about Communists - they see one any where you point.

exe, you need better sources.

Anonymous said...

So it's your fault Sarah Palin is getting death threats, right?

Larry said...

Anonymous: No, it won't be lefty lamestream media nor Markadelphia's and his ilk's fault if Palin is assaulted or killed. It will have been Palin, Fox News and the Tea Partiers' fault. You see, they (and they alone) whipped up the "terrible climate of hate" engulfing the country. Blowback, you know? If, God forbid, such a thing were to happen, you just watch and that notion will be trotted out by leftists within minutes. Nothing is ever Leftists' fault, you see.

Anonymous said...

Ah, the old classic "She was asking to be raped" defense.