As soon as I read about Rob Bell's new book, I knew what would happen right away.
"Satan is having a field day," Ruth Ward commented on Love Wins.
In other words, a giant shit storm would be unleashed. Because if there's one thing I know about old school evangelicals these days, they need to have the threat of burning in hell for eternity. Otherwise, it's meth amphetamine fueled gay sex morning, noon, and night.
Bell is one of a new wave of ministers who have seen the writing on the wall. The "All Fags will burn in Hell" meme isn't playing so well with the younger crowd and they are losing followers to other denominations at alarming rates. His ideas in the book are actually quite sound when you think about it. You can't have a loving God and an angry god at the same time. It makes no sense. Even the Bible itself says that God will remember our sins no more (Heb 8:8) and that the sacrifice of Christ propelled us into a period of grace. Why many Christians refuse to accept this is very frustrating. Honestly, I don't think they like themselves very much.
But what absolutely slayed me about the Bell flap was this article containing an all too familiar talking point/tactic.
It seems that where Bell’s arguments begin to break down, he simply walks away instead of pursuing consistency and logic. This book could not stand the rigors of cross-examination. It has little cohesion, little internal strength.
Now where have I heard those lines before?
Setting aside the fact that this discussion is about faith, not logic, did all you guys go to some sort of seminar or something? I can just see the notes in the course syllabus...
When liberals, progressives or RINOS have a new idea, all of which threaten our way of life, attack first on reason and logic. Continue with a merciless attack on their courage. Make their argument look flawed and their person cowardly so we can maintain our support base of frightened and angry people whose ignorance we so desperately need to cling to power.
Maybe I should go undercover and sign up for the next class. When does Spring Session start?
15 comments:
I "attack" any idea with logic and reasoning first. Shouldn't everyone?
"Hey! Let's get naked and set ourselves on fire!"
I choose not to try it first and see if I like it. Reasoning.
"Hey! I'll bet this dog turd tastes like chocolate!"
That's not logical.
Try it sometime. It works in a lot of situations.
You can't have a loving God and an angry god at the same time.
I really cannot figure you out. You blast out crap like this a lot and yet you are supposedly educated? You a parent? You can be angry and still love - that is BASIC.
Even the Bible itself says that God will remember our sins no more (Heb 8:8) and that the sacrifice of Christ propelled us into a period of grace.
You still have to accept the free gift of grace, it doesn't just cover over rejection of the gift. Didn't you mention you were Christian?! This is basic fundamental stuff and you seem not to get any of it. You go to a black liberation theology church or something?
Anyway, there are biblical references to hell summarized nicely for you:
http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
That is the extent of it. Anything else is speculation.
You go to a black liberation theology church or something?
And you wonder why people think you are racist...sheesh...
Bell is an evangelical who has a church with thousands in it. Last time I checked, he's not a "black theologist." I think the stuff he is saying is very worthwhile and makes complete sense...if you read and understand the ENTIRE Bible. You also have to understand what the word "hyperbole" means. Your link betrays that you don't. Your list is one giant collection of misunderstandings when you consider Hebrews 8:12 (my mistake on it being 8:8)
"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
Or 1 John 4: 10
"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."
No speculation, here...it's the Word, dude.
Being a Christian, I accept Romans 10: 9-10 completely. But there's no asterisk after that which states that if I sin, I'm going to Hell. Or if I don't confess a certain way, the I'm going to Hell. Or maybe if God doesn't like the cut of my jib, I'm going to to hell. In other words, God is no longer angry nor vengeful because Christ took all the wrath for us and now we are in a period of grace.
For those that don't accept that...well...it's not my place to judge what will happen to them. That's God's job. Do you know whose job it isn't? YOURS. And any other person that tries to insert themselves between the Lord and his people. Hebrews 8:11
"because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest."
What goes through your head when you read that?
This is why I have a problem with right wing Christians. You think that you know God. How can that be when man is flawed and God is perfect? You can't know what a supreme being thinks unless you are filled with supreme hubris. Are you? If you need the thought of burning in Hell to keep you from sinning, whatever works, I guess. But all sinning does is break your fellowship with God because if you accept Christ as your savior, love your neighbor, and help the least among us, you are will be saved.
Question for you, 6Kings. If you tell your son to not cross the road and he does it anyway, are you going to throw him in a burning pit?
M, you can drivel on all you want. You miss the fundamentals consistently which is why I asked. You are talking about two different concepts and mixing them up which is why you sound like a tool. Then you mix political ideology in to top it off. Yeah, great work there genius.
Need an example? "...because if you accept Christ as your savior, love your neighbor, and help the least among us, you are will be saved."
False. You only need to accept Christ. The other two you cited are not requirements for salvation but evidence of it.
Understand, I know my relationship and I suspect others do too. I have no condemnation of those of different faiths or non-faith. I have enough struggles on my own without worrying about others faith that I can't know. This right winger isn't your caricature you so desperately want to stereotype.
BTW, I forgot to add that I agree with you M, ha! I don't condone the Hellfire and Damnation as a way to salvation and most Churches I have attended don't use that nor do they condone that because the message is love, not punishment.
An open discussion about Hell isn't a bad thing either. My point originally was that there is very little detail written in the Bible which is why there is a lot of confusion and speculation about it.
I'm not the one doing the mixing, GD, but thanks for the clarification. And I do agree that good works don't guarantee being saved but the acceptance of Christ does. That sentence of mine was worded poorly. Ultimately, God will judge us on how we have treated the poor and the least among us not on sin. Sin is no longer an issue of wrath because of Jesus Christ.
I’m no theologian, but it seems to me you’re cherry-picking Bible verses to suit your religious views almost as much as you cherry-pick news stories to suit your political views.
Ezekiel 23:19-20 NET
Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.
Oh, there's cherry picking going on, dave, but it's not me. A lot of people want the "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" motif but it just doesn't add up when you seriously examine Jesus Christ. Everything changed after that which means loving God, not angry one. Bell's essentially right which means a sad day for the old schoolers. They rely on that fear to control people. I mean, can you imagine the "chaos" that's going to take place when people come to Christ out of love instead of fear? Hide the kids!
“The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.” – Verbal Kint
Here's a thought for you, dave. If I turn my back on the Lord and don't believe in Christ or heaven, I'm not saved and eternally condemned. If I turn my back on Satan, condemn him, trust in Christ, and don't believe in hell, I'm....still damned? It doesn't make any sense to me at all. The right's interpretation on the Bible is born out of their own weak and miserable perception of themselves. Naturally, they think that everyone is like that. I'm not. Are you?
If you need the threat of hellfire to keep you in line, dave, that's your issue, not mine. What's sad here is that it seems to me that you perceive God in the same way hirabis do...eternally destroying the infidel. Do you really want to be in the same category as them? I sure don't. Christianity is a superior religion because of love, not hate and anger. Why do you persist on perpetuating both? Do you really think humanity is all that weak?
"Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these..." (John 14:12)
Well, you go right on believing what you will; I certainly can’t compete with ‘the voices’.
((Mad… As… a… Hatter…))
"The right's interpretation on the Bible is born out of their own weak and miserable perception of themselves."
Wow. Just... wow.
Well, I've had several people on the right tell me that they are all "wretched sinners." Many more are borderline self abusive. This is from a friend of mine's (a pastor) FB page.
A deeply flawed person who is loved, saved, and transformed by God's grace in Jesus Christ.
I know the guy pretty well. He's not deeply flawed. He's barely even flawed. He's one of the kindest, most wonderful people I have ever met. He's a great father and a humble servant to his community.
I get that's part of his beliefs but why the titanic negativity? That's not what Jesus was about yet part of his personality--and I've seen this with others--needs to have that miserable perception and the boiling pit of sewage as a threat.
So, it's not a dig, it's a lament with a hurt question..."Why?"
dave, attempting to someone to think and reflect doesn't make them crazy.
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