Contributors

Tuesday, October 19, 2010

If You Prick a Corporation Does It Not Bleed?

The Supreme Court's Citizens United decision that corporations are people is legally, morally and ethically flawed. Can a corporation testify in court? Can a corporation hold public office? Can a corporation vote? Can a corporation be a parent? Can a corporation be imprisoned for its crimes? If you prick a corporation does it not bleed?

No. A corporation is not a person by any commonsense definition, most specifically because it is not a citizen.

Over the past few years the right has rationalized that illegal immigrants and terror suspects have no rights because they are not citizens. We are, as the argument goes, therefore free to expel, imprison and interrogate them as we see fit.

Consistently applying this rationale to corporations means that the only rights they should have are the rights that are bestowed upon them by the laws that govern their creation and operation. By any commonsense definition corporations are not people and the government is free to dictate restrictions on their behavior, which it still does in excruciating detail.

Unlike citizens, corporations are not mentioned in the Constitution. Nothing in the Constitution says that a corporation is a person. They are given no rights by the Constitution. A slave (euphemistically called a person "bound to Service for a Term of Years") is worth three-fifths of a person. A corporation? Zero.

If fact, corporations as they exist today did not exist at the time the Constitution was written. They did not become "artificial persons" that "possess individuality and immortality" until 1819 in another notorious Supreme Court decision.

Corporations exist solely to allow individuals to band together to avoid personal responsibility for collective actions. In particular, corporations are formed (in preference to partnerships) to avoid personal financial liability in the event of bankruptcy or other legal responsibility. This isn't evil or bad, it's necessary to run a business. But it's the reason why corporations aren't people.

As long as the officers of a corporation don't mix personal and corporate finances, and commit no crimes, they can run a company into bankruptcy and walk away without personal consequences. For example: let's say the officers of MegaMaint, a large building maintenance services corporation, build a new building with fancy offices for themselves and a fleet of nice new trucks, all with big loans from a bank. The building -- built by the lowest bidder -- has huge cost overruns, is poorly constructed and eventually collapses before completion. The trucks all break down -- lowest bidder again. MegaMaint goes bankrupt. The assets of the company are liquidated and the bank gets almost nothing. The bank goes after building contractor and the truck company, but they declare bankruptcy and their corporate officers skip out as well.

Now let's say that Jim is a small businessman who runs a sole-proprietor window-cleaning business. He doesn't have the money or wherewithal to hire a lawyer and set up a corporation. Jim borrows money from the bank to build a new outbuilding and a new truck
. Then he falls off his ladder and breaks his back. Jim doesn't have health insurance because he's in a high-risk occupation and the premiums are too high. He goes bankrupt from medical bills and lost income.

The difference between the MegaMaint CEO and Jim is that Jim is on the hook for everything. The bank and the hospital can go after everything Jim and his wife own in bankruptcy proceedings: their house, their bank account, their lake cabin, her jewelry, their stereo, their TV. They are forced to sell their house and property to pay off the bank loan and the medical bills.

The MegaMaint CEO is free to go out and do it all over again. Jim is out of his house, stuck in bed, broke, with a broken back.

How is that fair?

This is the key difference between a person and a corporation. No one is responsible in a corporation. As long as there's no proof of crime or entanglement with personal and corporate finances, no one is held accountable for a corporation's -- or the CEO's -- mistakes. To be fair, corporate bankruptcies are rarely this clear-cut. The CEOs are always giving themselves bonuses while the company's going bust, lying about financial prospects, or cutting deals with subsidiaries they secretly own. So CEOs are always involved with litigation after a bankruptcy.

Now the Supreme Court has also decided that corporations should be allowed to freely manipulate the electoral process via the media, by hiding behind "non-profit" slush funds that allow corporations to avoid responsibility for slanderous attack ads against their enemies. They can secretly donate millions of dollars to get candidates elected to office who have promised to do what these giant corporations want them to do: i.e., deregulate industries dominated by huge multinational corporations like Koch, BP, FOX News, Toyota, GlaxoSmithKline, etc., allowing them to escape even more responsibility for the things they do.

The corollary to the "corporation is a person" that makes this possible is the other perversion of the Constitution that the court has perpetrated: to wit, that "money is speech." The Constitution doesn't say that money is speech. TV didn't exist when it was written. The government tightly regulates the public airwaves for content, so it obviously has jurisdiction over what's broadcast. Why aren't the original intent guys all over this obviously overreaching radical activist Supreme Court ruling? Speech means standing on the street corner haranguing passers-by, or printing hand-bills with your manifesto. Multi-million dollar ad buys weren't never once mentioned by the Founding Fathers.

We have no idea who's giving to the political slush funds that finance these scurrilous ads. There are no reporting requirements. It could be foreign corporations or even foreign governments. Which would be a crime. But there's no way to find out because five guys on the Supreme Court think Target, Exxon, Burger King and Coca Cola are just regular folks.

To paraphrase conservatives's argument from a few years back: if they're not doing anything wrong, why don't they just tell us who's giving them all that money? Why are their donors afraid to stand behind their own words? Why aren't they offering their donor lists in order to help the government ferret out potential foreign corruption of the political process?

For a more concrete example of corporate irresponsibility, consider the BP oil spill. Because it involves at least three corporations and dozens of engineers and rig workers, it will be impossible to find the person responsible for the spill in the Gulf. But BP has a history of serious safety lapses resulting in numerous explosions, deaths and spills from the Gulf, to Texas, to Alaska. Their safety record is abysmal, even compared to other oil producers.

Corporate management at BP is responsible for this climate of irresponsibility. People and animals have died, economies have been trashed and our land and seas have been despoiled. Undoubtedly a few lackeys will be fingered as the fall guys who caused the spill. But the ones truly responsible, the ones at the top who demanded that they get the oil out as fast as possible no matter what, will never be brought to justice. And that's the whole purpose of corporations: to dilute personal responsibility so that the guys at the top enjoy all the benefits and never face the consequences of their mistakes.

Now the Supreme Court has given over financing of elections to these people.

It's the Bizarro version of the old maxim: with great power comes no responsibility.

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

That's just so stupid.

Mark Ward said...

I've been wanting to tackle this issue for awhile. This post was far better than anything I could've written.

The people that foam at the mouth about what the Constitution "really" means have no leg to stand on when it comes to this. Nowhere in it does it say that corporations are people.

These same people are usually the ones that whine about "activist judges" which really means they don't like the decisions. Ironically the Citizen's United case WAS a case of judicial activism springing from the most conservative court our country has ever seen.

It's not surprising that the right is happy about this decision. They want corporations to be able to do whatever the fuck they want to do and the government powerless to stop them. The amount of cash that is now pouring into GOP coffers this election (some from unknown sources) is staggering. As is usually the case, though, with the right, this decision will come back to bite them in the ass as liberals will have no choice but to follow suit. Mark my words...there will be plenty of bitching about money and corporations supporting the left coming from the likes of Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck at some point in the future.

This is why people like myself do know what's in the best interests of others. We actually take the time to think about the broad range of repercussions and how the negatives will affect everyone...including people with whom we don't agree. The right never does this. It's an emotional outburst followed by irrational policy that will, in all likelihood, fail.

And while the pieces are being picked up, there will be no claim of responsibility and no admission of error from the usual collection of people.

Angela said...

The Citizen's United case will go down as a black mark in the history of this country. That's assuming, of course, that we even have a government and country as opposed to one giant multi national corporation. Time after time we see the mistakes of the private sector and still people worship them as if they are deities. How blind can people be! And where does the private sector turn when it gets into trouble for the zillionth time?

last in line said...

Did you take the time to think about the broad range of repercussions that Peter Orszag spoke about with regards to the cap and trade bill?

"They want corporations to be able to do whatever the fuck they want to do"

More arguing with the voice in your head. I don't want corporations to do "whatever they want" so I'm not sure who you are debating here.

Thanks for clarifying the sole existence of corporations nikto. I think there are plenty of corporations that consist of individuals banding together to make a product or deliver a service in order to make a profit for themselves. In the process, they hire people. Surely your megamaint example exists...is that the norm in our country when it comes to the private sector in our country?

juris imprudent said...

The Supreme Court's Citizens United decision that corporations are people is legally, morally and ethically flawed.

This is not what the Supreme Court held in Citizens United. Should I bother noting that the ACLU (and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the NRA and AFL-CIO) were all on the side of Citizens United - or would that make your head explode? How about you being in bed - politically speaking - with John McCain, against CU?

Now you might be thinking that the Supreme Court ruled on corporations being treated like persons in Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad which was based on a 14th Amdt argument, and had no particular impact on Citizens United.

Not much more to argue about when you can't even get the first premise right.

juris imprudent said...

They did not become "artificial persons" that "possess individuality and immortality" until 1819 in another notorious Supreme Court decision.

That would be the case involving that infamous, evil "corporation" Dartmouth College.

Oh, and for all the hand-wringing and panty-bunching, this supposedly unprecedented decision is built on the treatment of corporations almost 200 years old?

juris imprudent said...

One more point actually on point about campaign finance.

Nikto - does your vote always go to the campaign that spent the most money?

I always ask the complainer about this, and the response I always get is "no [of course not]". So, what is the issue? The issue is that "other people" are fools who are so easily swayed - but never the person himself. Isn't there a word for that?

Civil War Reenactor said...

Incorporating is easy. Individuals do it ALL the time when starting small businesses. It's not some weird "white man's magic".
Anonymous speech deserves as much protection under the 1A as any other type, or people could be silenced by fear of reprisals when speaking out.

Damn Teabaggers said...

Corporations exist solely to allow individuals to band together to avoid personal responsibility for collective actions.

Rather sloppily put, but okay. The purpose of incorporation is to reduce risk and liability. I'll buy that one. However,

This isn't evil or bad, it's necessary to run a business.

Was there no business before the concept of incorporation was thought up?

In particular, corporations are formed (in preference to partnerships) to avoid personal financial liability in the event of bankruptcy or other legal responsibility.

(Emphasis mine.)

There are only a limited number of choices here. Either:

1. The corporation can be held liable just as an individual would be.

or

2. The individuals who incorporated are liable, as they are "the corporation" in the contractual sense.

or

3. Neither individuals nor corporate entity are held liable, and the consequences of bad decisions or bad luck are shuffled off onto customers, taxpayers, or both.

#3 is what we have now, and yes, it is evil. It is a way of legally binding the general public to the consequences of your actions, rather than dealing with those consequences yourself. As long as you accept "This isn't evil or bad, it's necessary to run a business", your entire argument boils down to nothing except "I don't care whether the rules are just or not, so long as my allies win and my enemies lose."

The problem with the Democrats is that they can often see that, but they can't (or won't) see precisely the same forces operating in precisely the same way in governments, unions, political activist organizations, churches, etc.

Thus they give the impression of believing that it's only evil if the end customer (you know, the one who gets screwed by this process?) actually ends up with a product or service he thought he wanted as compensation for his screwing. Wrong. It's evil when anyone does it, no matter how pure they claim their motives to be.

But somehow "the unions" never attract the ire that "the corporations" do, huh? Go figure.

juris imprudent said...

I guess Nikto, just like M really can't be bothered to back up his bold words. The post speaks for itself, eh? End of discussion.

Mark Ward said...

I've got some more to say about this one but it will have to wait until I get back to MN and have some more time to think and absorb. The last few comments in this thread are worthy of more thought.

rld said...

Hey Nikto, which politician did BP donate to the most in 2009 - 2010?

Answer: Obama

juris imprudent said...

The last few comments in this thread are worthy of more thought.

No empty promises M. Try to get back the way you were after you read the Manzi article.

I'm pure sick of the partisan hack.

Mark Ward said...

I don't do anything half assed, juris:) It's all ass all the time for me!

Damn Teabaggers said...

This isn't evil or bad, it's necessary to run a business.

In fairness, given the current civil court system, it is necessary to run a business, evil or not. When such a large portion of the customer base looks for any excuse to file suit, because they know it's cheaper for the company to settle out of court than to win, the moment you make the people who incorporate liable for the actions of the corporation, all business everywhere that law prevails will come to a screeching halt. It has to. Anyone with enough savvy not to draw to a small pair is too smart to stick his foot in that trap.

Which party was it that flatly refused to countenance any type of tort reform again?

sw said...

they'll never answer that last question. Never, ever.

Good post.

daniel said...

I'll answer it but not if you bait me like a school yard bully.

Mark Ward said...

"More arguing with the voice in your head."

Very tired of this one. Start listening to people you support and what they are saying. I can't be held responsible for you not keeping up with your party's 2010 nominees for office.

"That would be the case involving that infamous, evil "corporation" Dartmouth College."

I don't care what the organization is....they don't have the same rights as an individual. Whether it's Koch Industries or the SEIU, these are organizations, not people. I don't want either being able to pour unlimited funds into elections. As I have said before, this case is going to be the bane of the right, not a boon.

Now we get to the very insightful comments of Damn Teabagger

"Was there no business before the concept of incorporation was thought up?"

There sure was but that was back in a time when the consumer had more freedom to choose and supply and demand wasn't the fantasy that it is today. The modern day corporation has rigged the rules of the game to be able to operate outside of the law. In the past, businesses would pay their taxes and go about their...well...business. Today, they don't want to pay taxes...at all...and thus we have candidates like Pat Toomey. They also want to put consumers into the position of having less choice and not more. They seek to stifle competition and ensure continued profit regardless of the human cost.

"#3 is what we have now, and yes, it is evil."

You have perfectly summed up why I vote for Democrats. They aren't perfect. In fact, they barely get a "D"....a D minus...as many (Chris Dodd) shuffle those bad decisions off on us, the taxpayers. But they aren't pirates like the current form of the GOP. Their raison d'etre is continue #3 on your list and they are using the collective finances of those interests to win this election. Given a choice between a poor representative and someone who is going to rob me and feed me to a shark, I'll take the former who gets it right, but just barely.

"they can't (or won't) see precisely the same forces operating in precisely the same way in governments, unions, political activist organizations, churches, etc."

Well, I see it. An institution is not an individual regardless of their ideological drive. I shudder to think what would happen if the teacher's unions had as much money as the Chamber of Commerce. A whole host of horrors would be unleashed that would begin with outlawing all thinking outside of the box.

"But somehow "the unions" never attract the ire that "the corporations" do, huh? Go figure."

That's because they have less money than corporations do and, thus, less power. They don't have command of trillions of dollars and effect change on a global scale.

"Which party was it that flatly refused to countenance any type of tort reform again?"

But you just stated above that the system we currently have is inherently evil. Wouldn't tort reform take power away from the individual and leave corporations with the ability to operate even more freely than they already do?

Damn Teabaggers said...

Reading for comprehension, Mark. Learn it, live it, love it.

The modern day corporation has rigged the rules of the game to be able to operate outside of the law.

In 2008 the Obama campaign went to extra trouble to specifically disable verification of donors by credit card, and you never had a problem with it. How does the Obama campaign differ from "the modern day corporation", that you are so willing to ignore that?

Today, they don't want to pay taxes...at all...and thus we have candidates like Pat Toomey.

You never made a peep about Geithner or Rangel, or Dodd for that matter, until they became political liabilities.

Their raison d'etre is continue #3 on your list and they are using the collective finances of those interests to win this election.

Some of them, sure. That's why there's something of a civil war going on in the GOP right now between the tea partiers and the GOP establishment. I find it amusing that the ones trying to throw out the elitist aristocracy are the ones you demonize.

Well, I see it. An institution is not an individual regardless of their ideological drive. I shudder to think what would happen if the teacher's unions had as much money as the Chamber of Commerce. A whole host of horrors would be unleashed that would begin with outlawing all thinking outside of the box.

That's because they have less money than corporations do and, thus, less power. They don't have command of trillions of dollars and effect change on a global scale.

I call bullshit. Not only are you willing to defend shady, if not outright fraudulent, practices from Democrats and Democrat fundraising groups, but your entire premise is false:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303339504575566481761790288.html

Wouldn't tort reform take power away from the individual and leave corporations with the ability to operate even more freely than they already do?

Ideally, yes. Reading for comprehension, Mark. The whole reason the legal tricks to avoid liability are a necessary evil for business today is because businesses can be sued for anything a lawyer can dream up, and it's cheaper to settle than to WIN THE SUIT. If you enforce liability on corporations under such circumstances, business grinds to a halt, as it must.

And who is preventing that from happening? Hint: It's the same political party that the majority of trial lawyers donate to.

juris imprudent said...

There sure was but that was back in a time when the consumer had more freedom to choose and supply and demand wasn't the fantasy that it is today.

Oh no, you don't get to say that without two things: 1) at what pre-corporate time did consumers have more freedom to choose (and why), and 2) just HOW is supply and demand a fantasy right this very moment. I think you've slipped right back into your Golden Age nostalgia. Or maybe that is just your fundamental economic illiteracy poking out.

The modern day corporation has rigged the rules of the game to be able to operate outside of the law.

Just like Centerpoint was violating the law by breaking down your door, right?

Maybe you should stop blogging until after the election - all the political advertising seems to be rotting your brain.

Mark Ward said...

Juris, for the most part, the people that scream for a free market assume perfect competition. This has never been less true than in our culture today. This would be why supply and demand is a fantasy right now. The goods being offered are not all the same and there are less buyers and sellers which means more influence on market price by the sellers, not the buyers.

For much of our history, consumers have had more freedom to choose. The deregulation of the last 30 years combined with merger after merger have left them (us) with less.

Regarding CenterPoint, you asked me to provide you with one example of a corporation forcing its way into my home. I did in the most literal of senses. And it was for my own good, right? So, in this instance is it alright for an institution to tell me what is in my self interest?

Mark Ward said...

DT, I'm going to need to see some documentation on your Obama 08 statement. I have several people that set up regular, monthly contributions via both credit card and debit card.

Regarding Toomey-I did a poor job of communicating my point. I was criticizing Toomey's stated goal of having 0 corporate taxes which is insanely moronic. They don't really need more free reign, do they?

"the ones trying to throw out the elitist aristocracy are the ones you demonize."

But how can they do that when they are being funded and willing contribute to that same aristocracy? Ron Johnson is a multimillionaire. Carl Palladino is as well. Linda McMahon is part owner of the billion dollar WWE. Joe Miller went to Yale. Rand Paul? Duke. Ken Buck? Princeton. Their entire ideology is based on lies.

Regarding campaign spending, it's ridiculous no matter who is doing it. My figures regarding the larger cash coffers of the right come from here.

http://iowaindependent.com/44085/gop-allied-groups-outspending-democratic-counterparts-6-to-1

juris imprudent said...

Juris, for the most part, the people that scream for a free market assume perfect competition.

No, NO ONE claims there is perfect competition - that is a theoretical construct in economics. It does not exist in the real world, and even a cursory reading of a real work on economics would tell you that. Nor does that EXPLAIN what YOU are talking about by attempting to say someone screams about, particularly when no one here is saying that, nor are you quoting anyone, anywhere, at any time making that actual argument.

Do you give passing grades to such lame efforts? What a dis-service that would be to any child that wants to learn.

The goods being offered are not all the same and there are less buyers and sellers which means more influence on market price by the sellers, not the buyers.

Are you stoned? I ask because at the moment that is about the most charitable explanation for that bit of blather. I really can't even guess at what you are trying to argue - other than throwing a bunch of words at my ears and hoping some will stick.

For much of our history, consumers have had more freedom to choose.

Dates, M dates. Or you are just plying stupid, empty rhetoric about your non-existent Golden Age. I don't play that game, and you know it.

Regarding CenterPoint, you asked me to provide you with one example of a corporation forcing its way into my home.

Nope. I said you needed to show me an example of a company that forced you to do something you didn't want to do. They did not force their way in to your home. They asked for your cooperation, and you gave it to them, freely - under absolutely NO threat from the company. If you insist otherwise, you are either lying or incredibly stupid; not just in my eyes but in the eyes of people who nominally agree with you but told you that you were wrong.

daniel said...

Do you pay any attention to what Mark says, juris, or do you just foam at the mouth? He said the last 30 years. That means 1980-2010 if you are having trouble with the math. That also means that before that time there were more sellers and more competition. In other words, less of an oligopoly which is what we have now.

juris imprudent said...

He said the last 30 years.

Really, where did he say that? Here, let me quote you the entire paragraph that I was responding to.

"There sure was but that was back in a time when the consumer had more freedom to choose and supply and demand wasn't the fantasy that it is today. The modern day corporation has rigged the rules of the game to be able to operate outside of the law. In the past, businesses would pay their taxes and go about their...well...business. Today, they don't want to pay taxes...at all...and thus we have candidates like Pat Toomey. They also want to put consumers into the position of having less choice and not more. They seek to stifle competition and ensure continued profit regardless of the human cost."

Where is the last 30 years in there daniel - help me out. Was there some code words that I missed? Was it in the ellipses (that were indeed in the original text)?

The plain fact is that there was no particular demarcation; M has previously spoken wistfully of a Golden Age of "Good Capitalism" that took place some time before he was born. I did once get him to pin it down to the 50s to early 60s. Then he read Manzi's article and the scales fell from his eyes as it were.

It is also plain fact that there was no great alteration in the composition of the market, or to be precise - there is ALWAYS change in the number of participants in the marketplace. It is dynamic and does not support the conceit of idiots that there is some ideal static that we should hew back to. The irony of that coming from self-professed progressives - longing for an idyllic past, a notion not just conservative but reactionary - is mind-boggling.

I suspect that your OWN invention of post 1980 lends itself to blaming Reagan, ironically enough something M does not do.

So, let me help you build something like a coherent argument, rather than the usual liberal rhetorical blather.

What specific product that you buy comes from fewer suppliers (manufacturers, wholesales, retailers) today (i.e. you have less choice) than in 1979 AND costs more today than then? You must be specific on both counts.

Think you can do that? If instead, you want to talk about how corporations "frame our lives" or "dominate us", I reserve the right to rhetorically bitch-slap you right into next month.

juris imprudent said...

Juris, for the most part, the people that scream for a free market assume perfect competition.

DT, I'm going to need to see some documentation on your Obama 08 statement.


Wow, I just noticed the opening sentences of those two consecutive comments from M.

Brilliant. Sophistry of the highest order.

rld said...

HAHAHAHAHA

daniel said...

Let's cut and paste from your comment.

--For much of our history, consumers have had more freedom to choose.

--Dates, M dates. Or you are just plying stupid, empty rhetoric about your non-existent Golden Age. I don't play that game, and you know it.

You have asked me

--Where is the last 30 years in there daniel - help me out.

It's the rest of this sentence:

--For much of our history, consumers have had more freedom to choose. The deregulation of the last 30 years combined with merger after merger have left them (us) with less.

Since you cut and pasted the first part, I was under the impression that you were responding to that comment. The dates that you asked for are in the rest of the comment. Now you are changing what you were commenting on?

As far as I can tell, Mark's not talking about any Golden Age. He's talking about the deregulation that started around 30 years ago and has continued to this day. This isn't a Democratic or Republican exclusive problem, although it's clear which party favors less regulation. The airline industry is an example of this. When the government set the prices, pilots were paid more and worked less ridiculous hours. Now, it really sucks. Talk to a pilot and they'll tell you. Prices are ridiculous, all but one company charges for bags, there's not any real competition, pilots work long hours and get paid less, and the customer gets screwed. I fly a lot for my job and it is continually an inhumane experience.

Another example would be media ownership. Large conglomerates can dominate any market they want and stifle competition. Clear Channel is an example of this. Again, a result of deregulation and less choice for consumers.

Damn Teabaggers said...

DT, I'm going to need to see some documentation on your Obama 08 statement.

I'll only bother so much, since I know in advance you'll deny it, discount it and 'pooh-pooh' it anyway. If you want to know more, Google "Doodad Pro". You act as if you've been in solitary confinement if you didn't know this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/28/AR2008102803413.html

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15497.html

http://www.thenextright.com/patrick-ruffini/exclusive-barackobamacoms-lax-security-opens-door-to-online-donor-fraud

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2008/10/how-dare-he-point-out-my-error/4259/

Both AVS and CVC verifications, which are both system defaults for credit card transactions, were disabled. It's simply not possible for that to be accidental.

Mark Ward said...

DT, I think I misunderstood what you were saying..sorry. It looks like there were mistakes that were made but without an investigation, can we really say for sure? We can say, with certainty, that independent conservative groups are spending massive amounts of money (thanks to Citizen's United) that they hadn't spent before.

Daniel, thanks for stealing my thunder:) The airlines and the media, indeed!

Juris, what sort of a world do you think exists now in terms of competition? I'm not sure if we can have any sort of substantive discussion if you can't at least acknowledge that deregulation has occurred in the last 30 years and it has caused many problems.

Damn Teabaggers said...

We can say, with certainty, that independent conservative groups are spending massive amounts of money (thanks to Citizen's United) that they hadn't spent before.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=EADA3CE4-BDA3-4348-00995418331E5A97

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303339504575566481761790288.html

And of course, when Democrats outspent Republicans in 2006 and 2008, with outside groups favoring Democrats by a 2 to 1 advantage, somehow nobody worried about the possibility of "secret foreign money", because it's only worrisome if it goes to Republicans.

Go figure.

Damn Teabaggers said...

It looks like there were mistakes that were made but without an investigation, can we really say for sure?

We have no idea who's giving to the political slush funds that finance these scurrilous ads. There are no reporting requirements. It could be foreign corporations or even foreign governments. Which would be a crime.

In actual fact, is the US Chamber of Commerce that both you and Obama took aim at actually breaking the law by accepting foreign contributions? I don't claim to know, and would appreciate a link if you have one. On the other hand, if the Obama campaign took foreign contributions, made possible by the fact that they intentionally disabled both default verification systems on their credit card processing... well, that is a crime.

I will anxiously await your post calling for an investigation into the Obama '08 campaign's finances, since obviously it's such an important issue with you.

juris imprudent said...

Re: the last 30 years. My bad. For some reason I was locked in to the original comment, not the immediately preceding one.

So, the problem is all in the last 30 years. Oh boy.

The airline industry is an example of this.

Wrong. You are NOT paying more than in 1979, nor do you have less choice. You can pay for better service (1st class), but more people fly today, more cheaply than during the era of CAB regulation. That many airlines are poor competitors and losing both money and market share is not a problem, any more than buggy whip manufacturers going out of business due to those new-fangled automobiles. It is what the market does well, and only reactionaries - locked into an impossible to maintain past - complain about it. Try flying Southwest - it isn't fancy but they get you there and I've almost always been treated well. Can't say the same for the hold-over airlines like United or Delta. If you really want to know what airline oligarchy was like, read up on the history of Pan Am.

Another example would be media ownership.

Really, what media are you directly BUYING daniel that costs you more today than in 1979? Today you have broadcast, satellite, cable, print and the Internet - so you have MORE choices than in 1979 not less. That cable is locally regulated like gas or electric is not an argument against deregulation - is it? That newspapers are dying (because of loss of ad revenue) is right up there with buggy whips - a big fat so what.

Juris, what sort of a world do you think exists now in terms of competition?

Much the same that existed for at least the 30 years before, if not more so. Not "perfect competition" now nor has it ever been, nor does it need to be. You can't point to real examples (or when you try you fail), so you just bark about "oligarchy" as though that really affects your daily life. Hint: the closest "market" to oligarchy in your life is education - dominated by the public sector.