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Monday, August 06, 2012

On Stiglitz (Part Two)

In the second chapter of The Price of Inequality, Joseph Stiglitz discusses how an unequal society is created. From the outset, he discusses how this is allowed to happen.

Much of the inequality that exists today is a result of government policy, both of what the government does and does not do. Government has the power to move money from the top to the bottom and the middle, or vice versa.

Wow. What a commie.

He then goes on to discuss the concept of rent seeking and how people in power use it to manipulate the government into doing their bidding, hence the increased inequality. But aren't these people in power faced with a choice?

To put it baldly, there are two ways to become wealthy: to create wealth or to take wealth away from others. The former adds to society. The latter typically subtracts from it, for in the process of taking it away, wealth gets destroyed. A monopolist who overcharges for his product takes money from those whom he is overcharging and at the time destroys value. 

Right. That's the erosion of consumer surplus of which I often speak. So how does the latter (taking away wealth) actually happen? Well, it starts with many wealth creators not being satisfied with their wealth. So they seek to monopolize or rent seek even further. We saw this with the railroad barons of the nineteenth century and I think we are seeing it again today. So does Stiglitz.

Why does this happen? Stiglitz submits that Smith's invisible hand doesn't apply to our financial sector because their interest are not aligned with societal returns. They are, instead, aligned with their own interests and that of other people in the one percent. It's not a zero sum game but a negative sum game, where the gains to the winners are less than losses to the losers. As Smith himself said

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.

We saw this go on with the stock pools in the 1920s and the credit default swaps and CDOs in 2008. In fact, Stiglitz argues that private financial firms act to ensure that markets don't work well. Why? Because they can make more money. If markets are competitive, after all, profits above the normal return to capital cannot be sustained.

That is so because if a firm makes greater profits than that on a sale, rivals will attempt to steal the customers by lowering prices. As firms compete vigorously, prices fall to the point that profits (above the normal return to capital) are driven down to zero, a disaster to for those seeking big profits. 

He goes on to discuss how they teach students in business school to create barriers to competition and entry to a market as well as circumvent government regulation. Essentially, how to erode consumers surplus, make markets less efficient, and continue to widen the gap between the interests of the financial sector and the interest of society. In short, increase inequality.

Indeed, the financial sector has become quite adept at doing this. On pages 36-38, there is a section called  "Moving money from the bottom of the pyramid to the top" in which Stiglitz offers examples of how exactly this is accomplished.

-Taking advantage of asymmetries of information (selling securities that they had designed to fail, but knowing that buyers didn't know that)

-Taking excessive risk-with the government holding a lifeline, bailing them out, and assuming the losses, the knowledge of which, incidentally, allows them to borrow at a lower interest rate than they otherwise could

-Getting money from the Federal Reserve at low interest rates, now almost zero

And the worst, according to Stiglitz?

-Taking advantage of the poor and uninformed., as they made enormous amounts of money by preying upon these groups with predatory lending and abusive credit card practices. This took many forms...changing high interest rates, sometimes obfuscated by fees...the abolition of usury laws...circumventing regulations. Rent-a-Center, for example, claimed to be renting furniture but was really selling it and lending money at high interest rates. 

One poor person by themselves couldn't have done this. As there were so many, the amount of debt was astronomical. If the government had intervened in the best interests of social justice or concern of market efficiency, none of this would have happened.

Now there are many who think that it was the government, not the private sector, that drove this rush to lend to poor people through the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977. To put it bluntly, this is a giant load of shit. Here is one example of why that is.  And here is another.  And another. And another.  As we saw in House of Cards and Inside Job, this debacle originated in the private sector (specifically California) and happened simply because people in the financial sector (and then everyone else) wanted to make more money.

So, the financial sector was (and still is) more focused on circumventing regulations and exploitative activities than economic growth. As I have shown repeatedly, they don't contribute to our society in any meaningful way from an economic standpoint. Indeed, from Adam Smith's standpoint.

What other ways shift money from the bottom to the top?

-Those at the top have managed to design a tax system in which they pay less than their fair share-they pay a lower fraction of their income than do those who are much poorer. We call such tax systems regressive.

-The hollowing out of the middle class and the increase in poverty due to laws that govern how corporations interact with the norms of behavior that guide the leaders of these corporations and determine how returns are shared among top management and other stakeholders. If monetary authorities act to keep unemployment high (even because of fear of inflation), then wages will be restrained. 

And who is it that heavily influences those authorities?

Moreover, the very sharp attacks on unions have weakened have weakened the individual's power over the corporation. We currently have about 7 percent of our population that are in private sector unions.

Stiglitz concludes this section by stating that market forces combined with politics (both of which should work in a balance to lessen inequality) have actually joined forces to increase income and wealth disparity.

All in all, it's not a pretty picture and it continues to get worse. There are no words that I can use to express my frustration at the right who view this information as being "commie talk." I urge all of you to read the rest of Chapter 2 of Stiglitz's book as it details more ways (too lengthy to mention here) that the wealthy are rent seekers.

21 comments:

juris imprudent said...

This does not answer the questions I posed in the last thread, so I will reiterate them after this comment.

If the government had intervened in the best interests of social justice or concern of market efficiency, none of this would have happened.

Yet two of the first three issues listed were government intervention. Hello, McFly. Oh, wait, I get it - the Democrats are on the side of the angels and all we have to do is give more power to "the right people" who will never abuse such power. This is what is so fucking absurd - you point out that govt was part of the problem and then insist that more govt will solve that. That is insanity, plain and simple.

-Those at the top have managed to design a tax system in which they pay less than their fair share-they pay a lower fraction of their income than do those who are much poorer. We call such tax systems regressive.

Wow. Stiglitz actually says exactly that? Well, here we are back at fair share where the wealthy pay a higher percentage today of all income tax then any time since before the Great Depression. See M this is the problem with using rhetoric that has no quantitative basis - it reduces to nothing but lies and jealousy. Stiglitz blows whatever credibility he might have had by indulging in such transparent falsehood. The numbers destroy this particular argument - it is only sustained by the fabrication of uninformed moral outrage. [You know - that stuff you always bitch about so much when it comes from the other side.]

Now just as an aside, let's consider Stiglitz's motive here. Is it to actually build a persuasive case based on reason and facts? That would mean the book and argument are intended for the greater social good. Or, is he pandering to a certain segment of the population that won't think through this argument but will buy copies of his book to brandish as rhetorial weapons? Self interest certainly says the latter - those royalties will supplement his professiorial income nicely. Of course those who favor moral outrage will deny that any such consideration ever entered his mind. And the delusion of men acting in perfect harmony with the public interest over their own will be expediently sustained (and Adam Smith be damned).

Mark Ward said...

all we have to do is give more power to "the right people" who will never abuse such power.

That's the nuance that you fail to understand. It's not more power...it's actually enforcing laws that protect markets from inefficiency.

Stiglitz blows whatever credibility he might have had by indulging in such transparent falsehood.

juris, this my view of the book. Get a copy and read it for yourself. I'm not going to reprint all the data and sources here. There are over 100 pages of referential material for you to pour over. Go through it and then offer your comments. Don't take my highlights as being the end all and be all of everything he offers.

This does not answer the questions I posed in the last thread

Yes, it does. You asked

How does this shift in income happen?

There's a section in the book with a heading that is called "Moving money from the bottom of the pyramid to the top." He also gives other examples throughout Chapter 2 which I have illustrated here. If you don't agree, explain why. Start with the first one I mentioned

-Taking advantage of asymmetries of information (selling securities that they had designed to fail, but knowing that buyers didn't know that)

juris imprudent said...

So here was my original question...

Okay, so how exactly does money move from the bottom to the top? Just by looking at statistics? What is the mechanism? Certainly when some poor redneck buys a Taylor Swift album - that is money going from the less well off to the rich. But is that the thing we are concerned with? If not, what is it that concerns us?

So as a minimum wage employee, I make about $15K a year - I think we can all agree that I would be part of the low end and 'suffering' from the effects of inequality. If I buy goods that make rich people richer - is that what we are concerned about? I would think not, but feel free to correct me if we are concerned about this. Now, if this isn't "the problem" - what is? And what is the govt going to do to change it?

juris imprudent said...

It's not more power...it's actually enforcing laws that protect markets from inefficiency.

If it isn't power - what is the enforcement mechanism - pleading and begging? Of course it is more power - and that power to enforce is the same power to hand out favors. You must always look at how a power can be used - can it be used in the reverse of what you want to accomplish. If so, then you ought to consider how else to get at your goal.

juris, this my view of the book.

Then may I suggest you don't make it appear you are quoting the book. That is certainly what I took the color change to mean. I am relieved that Stiglitz didn't make such a boneheaded statement.

My question How does this shift in income happen? was in reference to the remediation of inequality by the govt - not as to how it arose in the first place. See my previous comment for that question.

As I said in your first post, there is nothing wrong with the way Stiglitz points out rent-seeking. That is non-controversial, standard economics. I guess you aren't familiar with that. The question is how do you respond to rent-seeking - by rewarding it? That is exactly the problem - rewarding rent-seeking, which in turn generates more attempts at rent-seeking (because people see that it pays off).

Mark Ward said...

In terms of your minimum wage employee, I think Stiglitz points to monetary authorities (the private sector and government) working together to keep unemployment high so wages stay low. The other thing he points to is the predatory lending and abusive credit card practices carried out by the banks and the financial sector. People can't even afford to pay for everything they need so they go to a place like Rent-A-Center which Stiglitz uses as an example. The interest goes where again? And most can't even afford that.

what is the enforcement mechanism - pleading and begging?

Good question. Honestly, I think at this point there is very little government can do. I think the 1 percent...the 0.1 percent...or whomever at the top have to realize they can't survive without transferring their wealth downwards. They are going to have to start paying people more money on their own which will, in turn, increase consumer confidence and then demand...a private sector stimulus, if you will. Otherwise, we are going to end up like one of those countries Stiglitz mentions. We are certainly well on our way.

The question is how do you respond to rent-seeking - by rewarding it? That is exactly the problem - rewarding rent-seeking, which in turn generates more attempts at rent-seeking (because people see that it pays off).

Well, that's Stiglitz's main point. There is quite a bit about rent seeking I didn't include because I thought it would just be repeating what is general knowledge.

One thing the government could do is cut subsidies...for all businesses. Oil companies as well as green tech companies like Solyndra. Level the playing field and let the free market work itself out. In short, end the rent seeking.

juris imprudent said...

I think Stiglitz points to monetary authorities (the private sector and government) working together to keep unemployment high so wages stay low.

So once again govt is part of the problem. But that wasn't my question was it? If I make $15K a year and buy something that makes someone else rich - is that the problem? If it isn't say so, and then let's figure out what the problem really is.

People can't even afford to pay for everything they need so they go to a place like Rent-A-Center which Stiglitz uses as an example.

So what. Do they wander the streets looking for poor people to hold a gun to their head and drag them to their stores? Is there anything that R-A-C rents/sells that no one can purchase any other place? Are people so stupid that they can't make a choice about where they do business? This is just more paternalism - you aren't smart enough to make your own choices (because you don't choose what I, the enlightened despot, think you should choose).

Nor does someone unwisely buying from R-A-C make anyone other than the owners of R-A-C rich. Either Stiglitz is using really bad examples or you are doing a terrible job summarizing his arguments.

They are going to have to start paying people more money on their own which will

So what the fuck does that have to do with R-A-C and/or "predatory" lenders? Let me ask you something - should lenders charge different rates based on credit risk, or should everyone pay exactly the same interest rate regardless of their credit history?

Going back to me being a minimum wage worker - other than my employer just suddenly deciding to pay me more (as you suggest above), what is going to reduce the inequality of income I am suffering under?

One thing the government could do is cut subsidies...for all businesses.

I can't disagree with that in the slightest! It is easier said then done - particularly because the favored businesses and politicians profit from it.

Mark Ward said...

If I make $15K a year and buy something that makes someone else rich - is that the problem? If it isn't say so, and then let's figure out what the problem really is.

It's not the buying of the actual item that's the problem. It's the lending of money combined with the interest that's the problem. In essence, it's credit.Now, you could say that if someone can't afford something, then they shouldn't pay for it. Fine. But what if it is essential?

Of course, this brings up a larger point. What if the guy who makes 15K decided that he was going to not get credit to buy that XBox his kids want. Or the LCD television. Every poor person decided to truly live within their means. No credit. What would our economy look like? Similar to what we have now only worse...no one could afford to buy anything. Bear in mind, I'm not endorsing that this is the way our culture should be run (no credit) but it does illustrate the very real dangers of this.

should lenders charge different rates based on credit risk, or should everyone pay exactly the same interest rate regardless of their credit history?

Obviously, lenders should charge different rates based on credit history. But should those lenders make more money off the higher risk individuals?

I can't disagree with that in the slightest! It is easier said then done - particularly because the favored businesses and politicians profit from it.

Well, this could be the nascence of an area where people on the left, right and in between could come together and really change how things work. The "No Subsidies" platform. We should make elected officials sign a pledge like Grover Norquist. In fact, he should do it as he is vehemently against subsidies as well.

6Kings said...

But should those lenders make more money off the higher risk individuals?

You have to ask this question? Interest is a determination of risk. Risk is factored into every credit transaction. It is that way for investors and it is that way for consumer credit. Risk carries a premium for the person putting their money on the line.

You are more than welcome to start a bank that offers low rates for lower credit scores and high rates for better scores. You might find out pretty fast that you have no money to lend.

Mark Ward said...

I asked the question, 6Kings, because that's what lenders did that caused the crisis in 2008. They made more money off the high risk loans. When they were bundled up in the CDOs (something no one really still understands), it became a giant mess. Add in the financial institutions who made money off of the credit default swaps and it's one giant disaster.

juris imprudent said...

Now, you could say that if someone can't afford something, then they shouldn't pay for it. Fine. But what if it is essential?

Is there anything at R-A-C that any person can't live without (or get from another outlet)? I seriously doubt it.

Interesting comment about the need to live beyond our means. I believe the word sustainability comes to mind. The piper will get paid - cash now or with interest later.

Obviously, lenders should charge different rates based on credit history. But should those lenders make more money off the higher risk individuals?

If I charge a higher risk individual a higher interest rate - how am I not making more money off of him? Then again, if he defaults I don't make that money off of him after all, do I?

But let's go back to the point about my income at $15K/yr. That is unequal, right? What is the govt going to do to make it more equal? That is what we want, right - less inequality of income. So how does that happen?

juris imprudent said...

I didn't respond to this before...

(selling securities that they had designed to fail, but knowing that buyers didn't know that)

That is pretty much a textbook definition of fraud, which is already quite illegal and subject to both civil and criminal prosecution. If you or Stiglitz are arguing that fraud is unsanctioned in the current system, you are in some kind of bizarro land.

Of course you might also ask why the former head of MF Global is still walking around a free man.

Mark Ward said...

Is there anything at R-A-C that any person can't live without (or get from another outlet)? I seriously doubt it.

A bed, maybe?

how am I not making more money off of him?

Because they were bundled together with the product that no one really understands...the CDO. The higher the risk, the greater the pay out for the financial adviser. Of course, the more he brought in the more money he made as well.

Then again, if he defaults I don't make that money off of him after all, do I?

If you or Stiglitz are arguing that fraud is unsanctioned in the current system, you are in some kind of bizarro land.?


Ah, but juris, they did make money off of people defaulting and that's where the whole fraud thing comes in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_default_swap

This is what Stigliz is talking about when he says "asymmetries of information."

That is unequal, right? What is the govt going to do to make it more equal? That is what we want, right - less inequality of income. So how does that happen?

Well, it's a stagnate wage with very little chance for advancement due to the reasons Stiglitz mentions in Chapters 1 and 2. There will always be people making lower wages, though, so I'm not sure if that in and of itself is a bad thing.

I'm not sure the government can do anything at this point. I know I sound overly cynical but anything they attempt will be labeled as socialism and a bunch of old, white people will blow bowels all across the country with Rush Limbaugh and others leading the charge. What they sadly can't see is that it's the government that could actually help in a number of ways. They could end subsidies as we have talked about...overhaul the tax system to eliminate wealthy individuals paying a lower effective rate...spend money in more needed areas like roads, bridges and education...enforce existing regulations that don't allow shenanigans to go on in our financial sector.

The private sector could start paying people more money so they can afford to buy the shit that each of the companies make. That wouldn't involve the government at all.

juris imprudent said...

Because they were bundled together with the product that no one really understands...the CDO.

What the fuck are you talking about? I asked a simple question about contradictory statements you made and you go off about CDOs? I don't know, maybe I should have anticipated that.

I'm not sure the government can do anything at this point.

Then what is the point of the wailing and rending of garments about income inequality? Is it just like how people complain about the weather and don't do anything about it? This just isn't a very important condition then is it?

The private sector could start paying people more money so they can afford to buy the shit that each of the companies make.

Granted, you are a public school teacher - so your wages really don't have anything to do with a real labor market. But this is an awfully weak response for all the bleating about income inequality.

EVERYONE wants to be paid more than they currently are. You get paid what your skills are worth. In my example - if I am making minimum wage it is because I have the lowest amount of skills on offer as labor. It really is that simple - and all the huffing and puffing and moral posturing doesn't change that. If I am in that position and want to change my future I have to do something to improve my own prospects. You on the other hand think someone should pay me more - just because then I could buy more shit and that is good for the economy.

Mark Ward said...

What the fuck are you talking about?

That's the nature of the CDO and, in particular, the CDS. If a borrower defaults...indeed, if many default, these products allow for huge payouts for those financial folks who bet that they would fall apart. It's more or less known now that these guys knew they were selling toxic loans to investors and told customers to buy them anyway (knowing they would fail) so they (the investors) could make more money.

But this is an awfully weak response for all the bleating about income inequality.

What other choice do I have? Any time I rally for government action, I'm a socialist who wants to turn America into Russia.

You get paid what your skills are worth. In my example - if I am making minimum wage it is because I have the lowest amount of skills on offer as labor.

It's not simply because you have the lowest amount of skills. The pool of labor is also a huge factor. That has grown to be quite large and even higher skilled workers aren't as in demand in the global marketplace.

If I am in that position and want to change my future I have to do something to improve my own prospects.

Right. But remember that it's to our country's benefit that these people do that to make ourselves more competitive in the global marketplace. It's also better for our economy because they make more money and spend it. So who is going to pay for that education?

You on the other hand think someone should pay me more - just because then I could buy more shit and that is good for the economy.

My point is that there is concerted effort to pay people less so the wealthy can have more power. What the wealthy can't see is that this will actually hurt them in the long run and it's to their benefit to pay people more money. Of course, they can find the labor elsewhere for dirt cheap and continue to make huge profits so they don't yet see the long term interest.

juris imprudent said...

That's the nature of the CDO

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I (or presumably 6kings) was talking about. Nothing.

What other choice do I have? Any time I rally for government action, I'm a socialist who wants to turn America into Russia.

First off, if that is what you want, then be honest about it - and the consequences. You shouldn't care that people won't like you saying it if it is what you believe to be right. Second, you can't handle criticism and hyperbole any better than that so you just sit and pout? Third, then why all the angst about income inequality if it really isn't all that important?

It's not simply because you have the lowest amount of skills.

If I am in a minimum wage job it is pretty indicative of either minimum wage skills, or other things that keep me from being a more valued employee. Too fucking bad if that bothers someone's self esteem - wake the fuck up and do something about it.

But remember that it's to our country's benefit that these people do that to make ourselves more competitive in the global marketplace.

Not everything is "the global marketplace" no matter how much Tom Friedman whacks off to that phrase.

It's also better for our economy because they make more money and spend it.

You know if you were making that argument with real leftists they'd bitch-slap the hell out of you. I just think it's funny. So income inequality is bad because it means people aren't consuming as much as they otherwise could.

My point is that there is concerted effort to pay people less so the wealthy can have more power.

Really - you haven't built any kind of argument in support of that. Your previous statement is that poor people should be better compensated just so their consumer spending stimulates the economy. Do you have any real idea why income inequality is bad?

How does some rich person have more power over me if I am making $15K/yr versus if I am making $75K/yr? At $75K/yr I'm not suffering from the horrors of income inequality (whatever they are) any more, am I?

I'm thinking the real issue for you is that you just can't stand that some people have so much. That's what - the 10th commandment?

juris imprudent said...

Just a point here. After the dot-com bubble burst I spent almost 2 years in marginal employment - including a spell when the only job I could get was $10/hr at a retail gun shop. I did that for a few months (until I got a job that was more in line with my skills) - so I know what it is to have economic conditions turn against you even though you didn't do anything wrong (to make your employment prospects worse). I didn't blame the rich for that, and I didn't credit them with creating a job for me. That is just how it went.

juris "bully weasel" imprudent said...

So for months we've been treated to gnashing of teeth about income inequality and then this.

What a letdown.

It only matters because poor people spend their income on consumption and that is good for the economy.

Dayum.

Mark Ward said...

Well, juris, there are several more chapters to go. Have you read the book yet? I would certainly hope that you wouldn't rely on my biased point of view:)

And what exactly where you hoping for? I'm trying to imagine what it is that I could say to convince you.

juris imprudent said...

Well, I was expecting some kind of elaboration of what the problem with income inequality is. So far - per you (and Stiglitz) - it is because it negatively impacts aggregate demand. Now if I bought the general premise of Keynes, I might agree that that is a problem. Since I don't - there doesn't appear to be any issue here except fabricated moral outrage from the left. I guess I thought there might be something more than that.

Certainly there has been nothing to substantiate the accusation that the rich have power over me (i.e. can make me do something against my will) if I only make $15K/yr but not if I make $75K/yr.

Mark Ward said...

Why don't you wait and reserve judgment until I'm done with each chapter? Better yet, go get the book and read it. Stiglitz has certainly done a fine job of giving you the answers you seek.

Given your past behavior, though, I doubt your mind will change.

juris imprudent said...

I'm willing to wait. I may even go to the public library to see if they have a copy. I will be looking for an answer on my last point - absent substantiation don't expect me to have a sudden change of heart. As you note, that is how I roll.