You know what amazes me, Noni. The president was terrible in the debate and left himself open for much criticism. Yet here we are back to the vetting obsession and people thinking he's a communist. You guys just can't get rid of your fictional Obama, can you?
I generally disagree with Anonymous' aggressive harshness towards even you. But in this case, I have to agree. I can't quite remember the term he uses, but it is entirely appropriate in this case.
Those links are to DSA's OWN WEB SITE!!! You can't even use your normal genetic fallacy on this one, so you just plain pretend it doesn't mean a damn thing.
The only fiction here is YOUR fantasy world! Pull your head out of your ass Mark, before you suffocate.
Let's assume that everything you say about the New Party is true and unbiased. What does that mean in terms of the president? You've seen him govern for the last four years. Has he done so as a socialist or a communist?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what you think his being a member of the New Party means. Moreover, unlike the woman in this video, can you define what it means to be a communist, how that is different from being a socialist and how the president fits into all of this.
What is the definition of "Socialist"? What are Obama's actions and beliefs? Do they match?
Why do you find this so hard? Why can't you just admit the obvious? Why do you so adamantly refuse label which is defined by the policies you are so damn proud of?
Because it isn't socialism. It's only that way to you because of your hostility and irrational fear of the federal government. Welfare capitalism is not socialism nor is it communism. I think the president's words and actions demonstrate this philosophy...one that is shared, mind you, by folks like Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan.
The president hasn't taken action to take over the nation's economy, centrally plan it and set/control prices. The market decides this everyday. He hasn't nationalized the oil industry or taken over Apple and ordered it to only allow American workers to build iPhones. In fact, on his watch, we've seen private sector jobs go up and public sector jobs go down.
So, I don't get it. But this is what I mean by managing fantasies...it's a waste of time. And you haven't answered my question above. What has he done or said to make you think he is a socialist or a communist?
All that, and not one word defining what "socialism" is.
Here's another of the many clues you've ignored over the years: In order for communications to work, you have to use the same word meanings as everyone else. So stop making up your own definitions.
Well, there you go again:) The games...the redirect...
I was being pretty charitable, Noni, answering your questions before you answered mine (the second paragraph contains the definition and two examples) but now it's your turn. Is the president a communist? How is he a communist? Is the president a socialist? How is he a socialist? What does this have to do with the New Party?
Here are two articles detailing Obama's history and ideology (including his own words). But instead of pulling out your normal Genetic Fallacy, why don't you try shocking us all and actually try to show that most of the specifics about Obama's history presented in these articles are inaccurate. (Which should be interesting given that most things presented in the articles are well known facts.)
To avoid being mistaken for a sellout,I chose my friends carefully.The more politically active black students.The foreign students.The Chicanos.The Marxist Professors and the structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.We smoked cigarettes and wore leather jackets.At night,in the dorms,we discussed neocolonialism,Franz Fanon,Eurocentrism,and patriarchy. — Barak Obama, Dreams from My Father
An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists. — The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
What was it you said? "Welfare capitalism". That's "tolerat[ing] capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy." What is you're constantly harping on? The evil rich bastards? Needing more regulations (government control)? From those according to their ability (the wealthy) to those according to their needs (the poor and needy), by force?
Pointing out what he hasn't succeed at (because we stopped him) is a cop out because it ignores what he actually did accomplish, what he tried to accomplish and failed at, and what he says he wants to accomplish (single payer health care) but hasn't gotten to. Yet.
Your allusions to "past connections" smacks of McCarthy like tactics and bears little relevance to the four years he has spent as president. In the final analysis, that's what matters. I could accuse the president of being a UOC Friedman follower because he worked at the University of Chicago and palled around with free market fundamentalist. That doesn't mean he is or was one.
So, in using your definition here, the president has not substantially controlled the distribution and production of goods during his time as president. As I mentioned above, he hasn't nationalized the oil companies or taken over Apple and forced them to hire American workers. On the contrary, the latter has hired workers in an actual communist country to work for shit wages so they can maximize their profit. The president has done nothing to stop this. That's the free market (in this case, the labor market) at work. The same is true for the oil. It's obvious that he has very little control over what happens in this market as well. Gas prices have gone up or down in response to market forces.
Further, the president doesn't have much say in what happens in the financial sector. Where was the government when JP Morgan Chase lost 6 billion in risky trades?
Now, if you want to complain about the government and redistribution of wealth, that's fine. But it's very clear which direction it is going (up, not down) and who is pushing these policies (the wealthy, not the people). In fact, this is where the inequality has come from in our country-government policy-and I would think that a conservative would complain about such government interference.
Just because the government can sometimes improve market efficiency (as is the case with welfare capitalism) doesn't mean we can immediately make the leap that it's socialism. That's why it's very frustrating (and sadly ironic) that you write of words having meanings. They do. Welfare Capitalism isn't socialism.
I see. Nothing is socialism until after the economy is totally captured and the inevitable collapse.
No, that's not what I said. Sheesh....
Our country has socialism in small pockets. If you have had a drink of water or gone to the library lately, well, that's socialism. It works in situations like this and, with the latter, for example, we haven't seen Amazon or any other private booksellers go under. Plenty of people buy books and plenty of people go to the library. Have you ever used the library, Noni?
It's all about balance and it has been quite successful in this country and it will continue to be that way. Now that Mitt Romney is a moderate again, either candidate (should they win) will continue this balance. We have free markets and we have social programs and the president, over the last four years, has preserved this balance quite well.
19 comments:
Early in his career, Obama was a member of the New Party, which was an arm of the Democratic Socialists of America Party.
New Party Organizes
Chicago New Party Update
You know what amazes me, Noni. The president was terrible in the debate and left himself open for much criticism. Yet here we are back to the vetting obsession and people thinking he's a communist. You guys just can't get rid of your fictional Obama, can you?
Fictional? FICTIONAL?!?
I generally disagree with Anonymous' aggressive harshness towards even you. But in this case, I have to agree. I can't quite remember the term he uses, but it is entirely appropriate in this case.
Those links are to DSA's OWN WEB SITE!!! You can't even use your normal genetic fallacy on this one, so you just plain pretend it doesn't mean a damn thing.
The only fiction here is YOUR fantasy world! Pull your head out of your ass Mark, before you suffocate.
So, it's your contention that Barack Obama is a communist or a socialist because he attended a meeting early in his career?
Hmm, what does that sound like?
Not "attended a meeting", dumbass. He was a MEMBER of the party and endorsed by them.
Perhaps this will help you understand.
Let's assume that everything you say about the New Party is true and unbiased. What does that mean in terms of the president? You've seen him govern for the last four years. Has he done so as a socialist or a communist?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what you think his being a member of the New Party means. Moreover, unlike the woman in this video, can you define what it means to be a communist, how that is different from being a socialist and how the president fits into all of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio
Words mean things, Marxy.
What is the definition of "Socialist"? What are Obama's actions and beliefs? Do they match?
Why do you find this so hard? Why can't you just admit the obvious? Why do you so adamantly refuse label which is defined by the policies you are so damn proud of?
Because it isn't socialism. It's only that way to you because of your hostility and irrational fear of the federal government. Welfare capitalism is not socialism nor is it communism. I think the president's words and actions demonstrate this philosophy...one that is shared, mind you, by folks like Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan.
The president hasn't taken action to take over the nation's economy, centrally plan it and set/control prices. The market decides this everyday. He hasn't nationalized the oil industry or taken over Apple and ordered it to only allow American workers to build iPhones. In fact, on his watch, we've seen private sector jobs go up and public sector jobs go down.
So, I don't get it. But this is what I mean by managing fantasies...it's a waste of time. And you haven't answered my question above. What has he done or said to make you think he is a socialist or a communist?
All that, and not one word defining what "socialism" is.
Here's another of the many clues you've ignored over the years: In order for communications to work, you have to use the same word meanings as everyone else. So stop making up your own definitions.
Well, there you go again:) The games...the redirect...
I was being pretty charitable, Noni, answering your questions before you answered mine (the second paragraph contains the definition and two examples) but now it's your turn. Is the president a communist? How is he a communist? Is the president a socialist? How is he a socialist? What does this have to do with the New Party?
I know why you aren't answering...:)
The games...the redirect...
Humptydelphia says words only mean what I want them to mean at that moment in time. He is the master, is he not?
Here are two articles detailing Obama's history and ideology (including his own words). But instead of pulling out your normal Genetic Fallacy, why don't you try shocking us all and actually try to show that most of the specifics about Obama's history presented in these articles are inaccurate. (Which should be interesting given that most things presented in the articles are well known facts.)
Barack Obama’s Connections to Socialism, Communism and Racial Divisiveness
Barack Obama, the Socialist
To avoid being mistaken for a sellout,I chose my friends carefully.The more politically active black students.The foreign students.The Chicanos.The Marxist Professors and the structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.We smoked cigarettes and wore leather jackets.At night,in the dorms,we discussed neocolonialism,Franz Fanon,Eurocentrism,and patriarchy.
— Barak Obama, Dreams from My Father
BTW:
Socialism:
An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.
— The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
What was it you said? "Welfare capitalism". That's "tolerat[ing] capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy." What is you're constantly harping on? The evil rich bastards? Needing more regulations (government control)? From those according to their ability (the wealthy) to those according to their needs (the poor and needy), by force?
Pointing out what he hasn't succeed at (because we stopped him) is a cop out because it ignores what he actually did accomplish, what he tried to accomplish and failed at, and what he says he wants to accomplish (single payer health care) but hasn't gotten to. Yet.
If the shoe fits, Marxaphasia, wear it.
Your allusions to "past connections" smacks of McCarthy like tactics and bears little relevance to the four years he has spent as president. In the final analysis, that's what matters. I could accuse the president of being a UOC Friedman follower because he worked at the University of Chicago and palled around with free market fundamentalist. That doesn't mean he is or was one.
So, in using your definition here, the president has not substantially controlled the distribution and production of goods during his time as president. As I mentioned above, he hasn't nationalized the oil companies or taken over Apple and forced them to hire American workers. On the contrary, the latter has hired workers in an actual communist country to work for shit wages so they can maximize their profit. The president has done nothing to stop this. That's the free market (in this case, the labor market) at work. The same is true for the oil. It's obvious that he has very little control over what happens in this market as well. Gas prices have gone up or down in response to market forces.
Further, the president doesn't have much say in what happens in the financial sector. Where was the government when JP Morgan Chase lost 6 billion in risky trades?
Now, if you want to complain about the government and redistribution of wealth, that's fine. But it's very clear which direction it is going (up, not down) and who is pushing these policies (the wealthy, not the people). In fact, this is where the inequality has come from in our country-government policy-and I would think that a conservative would complain about such government interference.
Just because the government can sometimes improve market efficiency (as is the case with welfare capitalism) doesn't mean we can immediately make the leap that it's socialism. That's why it's very frustrating (and sadly ironic) that you write of words having meanings. They do. Welfare Capitalism isn't socialism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalism
(because we stopped him
Who is "we," exactly?
what he says he wants to accomplish (single payer health care)
We already have single payer health care in this country. It's called Medicare. Have we seen a pile of skulls as a result of this system?
I see. Nothing is socialism until after the economy is totally captured and the inevitable collapse.
Welcome to Wonderland, everybody!
“When i use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,“ said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
(Yes, this is what Juris was referring to.)
I see. Nothing is socialism until after the economy is totally captured and the inevitable collapse.
No, that's not what I said. Sheesh....
Our country has socialism in small pockets. If you have had a drink of water or gone to the library lately, well, that's socialism. It works in situations like this and, with the latter, for example, we haven't seen Amazon or any other private booksellers go under. Plenty of people buy books and plenty of people go to the library. Have you ever used the library, Noni?
It's all about balance and it has been quite successful in this country and it will continue to be that way. Now that Mitt Romney is a moderate again, either candidate (should they win) will continue this balance. We have free markets and we have social programs and the president, over the last four years, has preserved this balance quite well.
No, that's not what I said.
Really?
Have we seen a pile of skulls as a result of this system?
He hasn't nationalized the oil industry or taken over Apple and ordered it to only allow American workers to build iPhones.
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